On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess
I'll respond here too.
Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in
the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see
the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.
Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move
the wires and post another link.
Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any
discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.
...because there *are* 3 wires.
I asked that question because of your assertion that there are only 2
wires. If we were to suspend reality and agree that there are only 2
wires and then apply your statement "He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground" do you really think that the wires would be black
and green? In my experience, devices that only provide a hot and a neutral
use black and white, not black and green.
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:47 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I can see it. It's partially hidden, but like you said, just knowing
that it's a light, seeing a black and a green, you immediately think
where is the white and then it's not hard to spot.
Bottom line on this whole thing is that to do this 100% absolutely
code compliant would be a real pain in the ass. I could certainly
live with running the wire into the receptacle box and connecting it
there. What would an inspector say? IDK, but they have discretion
and I don't see any real safety issue as long as it's done in a
reasonable way. For example, what happens when an electrician
runs a new cable for a wall receptacle? Do they punch holes everywhere
in the wall to meet the reqt that it be stapled along it's length,
stapled within 12" of the new box, etc? Or do they drill a hole
in the top or bottom plate, cut a hole for a box and just snake the cable?
If you had to strictly follow every last code detail, regardless of the
circumstances, it sure would make for a lot of extra work.
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:03:47 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
I couldn't agree more.
This is from a "This Old House" installation. Is it code to have the
Romex come out the wall and left exposed as shown? Maybe a length of
wiremold to cover the Romex would work.
I've removed the short cord that comes with shop lights and ran Romex
directly into the housing, secured with a Romex connector. This allowed
me to wire them into a lighting circuit without have to put a receptacle
in the ceiling near each one. Perhaps that is a viable solution for Car13.
Assuming the cord that is on the LED fixture is not code compliant to be
run inside a wall, replacing it with Romex might work. Where he sources
the power from is up to him. Properly, from a lighting circuit, or improperly,
from a counter receptacle box. I realize that I am talking from
both sides by saying he shouldn't run the existing cord inside the wall but
"accepting" a connection to the counter receptacle circuit. It's just that
running the existing cord through the wall makes me very uncomfortable.
I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.
I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.
I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, email@example.com wrote:
I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.
You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:46:55 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
Hey, let me start by saying that I am not a code expert. I've been saying
all along that I'm not sure about the fixture code itself. That said...
I think it's different when the fixture is attached directly to the
fixture box and the wires within the fixture are wire-nutted to the source
wires in the box. Once we start talking about cords from the fixture I don't
think that they can be brought into a junction box but I could be wrong.
I think this section of the code covers what I'm talking about:
NEC 400.8 Uses Not Permitted
(ref. Extension Cord) Flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
- As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
- Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended
ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
- Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above
suspended or dropped ceilings
I *think* that the fixture cord qualifies as a "flexible cord" and
would therefore not be permitted, especially not permitted inside the
wall. Whether it would be permitted to run from the fixture to a junction
box under the counter or even inside the cabinet is something I'm not
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:45:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I think you have valid points especially about running it inside
the wall. On the other hand, some manufacturer
made this thing, presumably it's listed, which is why I asked what the
install instructions and pics show. It has a flexible cord that's
supposed to be wired to something. How in the hell are you supposed
to be able to use it?
He could put a plug on the end of it and plug it in, like Micky suggested.
One key to avoiding this is to try to match what you're buying with
what you have to work with.
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:10:39 AM UTC-5, WTF wrote:
The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the
fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc.
None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:
Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground
OK, here's where things get a little touchy. Please don't take this the
wrong way. After all, you did say: "I do want this to be safe for me and
everyone else in my building."
You don't know what to call the wires which tells me that you haven't
spent much time working with household electrical wiring. You passed the
inspection so now you don't mind going off the reservation. Both of those
things concern me. Are you sure that you are the right person to be
attempting this installation? Do you have friends that have done house
wiring before that would be willing to help/teach you how to do this
Keep in mind that we are all pretty sure that using that receptacle box
in the first place is not code compliant, so anything else that you do
may only make matters worse.
One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall
and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the
wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely? Will you
know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now
unsafe? Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire? Do
you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from
my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to
run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.
If you indeed want to tackle this job, we might be able to tell you the
generic steps to get the wiring done, but without actually seeing the
inside of that box, we can't be specific. If they used wire nuts and
pigtails, adding a wire would be done one way (assuming there is room).
If they back-clamped the wires into the receptacle, it will need to be
done in a different way. If there is some sort of shared neutral (I doubt
it) then that adds another element. All I am trying to say is that it all
depends on how that receptacle box is wired.
At the risk of sounding tedious, I really think you need to determine if
that cord should even be run inside the wall. If not, then you are going
to have figure out how to get your source wires into a junction box and
then figure out how to get that cord (safely) into the junction box. As
I mentioned in an earlier post, it might be OK to remove that cord and use
Romex as shown here:
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