Indiana house exdplosion update

Yeah, that's a bit of a problem. I think you'll recall my post a while back about how all the handbooks of arson investigation, particularly regarding various accelerants, are being rewritten because many were based on anecdote, not science. The most damning was the discovery that what investigators had previously classified as accelerant trails on the floor were actually a peculiar distillation effect of the hot gas from melted plastic furnishing condensing when they met the cooler floor surface. They discovered this after one of the many test fires they set at the nearby Fire Institute at UMd.

People were executed on the basis of faulty data that "arose" from examining test fires from a time when there was very little plastic in a burning home. So the arson investigation profession took a big hit, along with a number of other forensic profession as more and more judges are requiring scientific and not tradition or simulation based testimony. You may have heard of Texas' recently discredited "dog lineup" that has been laughed out of court - finally.

formatting link

Somehow, a lot of these guys fail to detect the causes of deliberately set fires which makes their "hit" rate in past cases very suspicious. Reminds me of why cops score very high on detecting deception: they believe everyone's lying. Their apparently accuracy as human lie detectors is offset by their inability to detect the truth as often as other people.

Many accidental fires look very much like arson and vice-versa. I've sat through the testimony of a lot of fire and accident reconstruction specialists and have only been mildly impressed by some and complete flabbergasted by the chutzpah of others when it came to try to assess fault. Perhaps the prosecutors find more credible witnesses for criminal cases but I doubt it. As OJ showed, with enough money a good defense attorney could discredit Diogenes and Abe Lincoln both.

These cases are hard to prove (beyond appeal) because it's rare they can find a witness or a CCTV recording showing the defendant setting the fire. After a decade of CSI watching, jurors come to expect evidence that exists only on TV shows. No witnesses, to a good lawyer, is almost all the reasonable doubt you need. As you noted, when the crime scene is blown all to hell and evidence has not been collected with the same care as it would in a typical murder crime scene, you've got another evidentiary hill to climb.

These people were out of town, apparently, when it happened. Making it even harder for a jury to convict unless a timer device with a direct connection to the defendant is found. Plenty of people I've seen post on Usenet wouldn't hesitate to "Ben Quick" one of their neighbor once they realized they weren't home. As other posters have noted, some of those evil people have immolated themselves along with their target. As my WWII vet editor told me: "Never underestimate stupidity." If in doubt, see the thread where two of our regulars are arguing who is more stupid. (-:

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
Loading thread data ...

Yep, why rely on science when human weakness is so vast?. The problem, of course, is that it's well known prosecutors can get whatever testimony they need by jacking someone up for some other crime (drug possesion's a favorite) and then "leveraging" the desired testimony out of them for a promise of immunity.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Pete, you dang sumnobitch, you stole my fire! (-:

That case, and a few others, have resulted in a very fundamental re-examination of what was standard practice in fire investigation. For those too lazy to click, Wiki did a pretty good summary showing two of the "givens" in fire investigation (glass crazing and accelerant trails) that are no longer accepted as fact:

Reply to
Robert Green

I just read a bit online about the Willingham case. Not sure about the forensic evidence and a lot of that may have been poorly done, but some of his actions and statements as reported by witnesses sure were strange. For example, he told a fire investigator that he poured mens cologne down a hallway leading to the kids bedrooms because they like the smell of it? Sure seems like someone who knew an accelerant was used and trying to come up with plausible deniability. And not very smart either, with that story.....

Reply to
trader4

Because my dad was a forensic engineer who testified in a number of fire cases. From that experience I can safely conclude that such cases are hard to make. Even when they are won, they are often reversed on appeal when the furor has died down and the case is examined dispassionately.

Fires destroy crucial evidence. Gas explosions even more so. Fire and rescue crews comb through the debris, moving evidence and destroying the evidentiary chain of custody. Neighbors rummage through the area, further clouding the value of evidence collected afterwards. I don't need to know what this case's particulars are to know how hard these cases are to make in general just because of how they unfold.

They could have found a video the perp made of him setting up a timed ignitor, but it's not likely. All of what you suggest is possible. But compared to a 7-11 robbery homicide with ballistics evidence, CCTV footage of the perp with the gun, witnesses, etc. an arson case is hard to prove unless you have direct evidence of the sort you mentioned.

Even if such equipment is found, you have to prove intent in a criminal trial, and that's where things get sticky. Jurors know witnesses, especially those getting a deal from the DA, can be coerced. They know that many gas explosions have happened without any malice involved. They probably know the gas company and city are looking hard to make sure they're not blamed for the incident through some sort of negligence.

These are almost always hard cases to make. I agree, there are exceptions. I saw a clip on TV from a CCTV camera that captured a man throwing a Molatov cocktail at a store window but the bottle bounced back and engulfed him in flames. That's a much easier case to make than this one where the alleged perps were out of state and didn't end up in the ER covered with the smell of gasoline and all their hair burned off.

Don't worry, I never underestimate stupidity, either from criminals, DAs or Usenet posters. (-:

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

to Jim Krueger)

And you can be sure the fuel/air mix is right for an explosiong just how? Too little feul or too much in an enclosed space and no explosion. That is the problem.

Harry K

Reply to
Harry K

Which is breathtakingly beside the point in this case because of (1) as you yourself noted the science is better and (2) we are talking about an explosion where the plastics melting is not a factor.

This was treated as crime scene from the get go.

Harder but not impossible. Actually some sort of timer or other ignition device was probably viewed as a requirement from the getgo.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

Per Robert Green:

I wasn't trying to come off as knowing anything.

But that Wikipedia account seemed to support the contention that arson investigation was pretty bad in the past and has moved more into the realm of science today.

And Rick Perry looked pretty mean in that article.

Reply to
(PeteCresswell)

If the space is enclosed, it's not hard to figure out the timing.

Reply to
Wes Groleau

That may be a problem if you are looking for the perfect explosion but if you are just looking for a blast big enough to collect the insurance, the mix is not that important. It does not take one PSI, impressed on the total envelope of a house to take the roof off and blow the walls out, particularly in the 99% of the country that does not have a hurricane code. That is the main intent of the hurricane strapping we have in Florida. It protects against uplift.

One PSI of pressure from a mediocre explosion ends up being 230,000 pounds of uplift on the ceiling of a 1600 sq/ft house.

100 16d "toe nails" in 25 trusses is not going to hold down an uplift close to a quarter million pounds. The 5000 pounds or so of roof is insignificant to that much uplift..
Reply to
gfretwell

And he doesn't even need to do that much. Have the blow out screw with the wood frame of the house and even moving it a few inches is probably enough in most cases to total out the house. People get fixated on the big outcome and think THAT is what the plan was. It was probably thought the boom was going to be much less.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

Utter nonsense.

Reply to
krw

Bingo! We had one that would sit with it's face in the corner and pout, while the other soaked up all the attention.

Did hear it all the way down here. ;-)

Yes, the boarding of the cat was what piqued my interest.

Reply to
krw

How many timers exist in the average house that could be hijacked to time the explosion? Timers that have a legitimate reason to be in the house. Lots of them - and VERY hard to prove after an explosion and fire what they were used for.

Reply to
clare

But how many would produce the needed spark on their own? You can also ask why they were in the place where you found them? That can be a tip.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

I'd use my handy gas water heater.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

You have timer on your water heater? neat!

Set exdplosion for 3:30 AM?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

formatting link
.

I'd use my handy gas water heater.

Jim

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Given the mild weather in Indy on that day, I would probably use the thermostat. I set it for something that may be higher than usual, but not unduly high. . It would have taken a while after the sun went down for the house to get cold enough to kick off the furnace and ignite the gas. The seat would be near the furnace and it would have been written off as a leak around the furnace.

Reply to
Kurt Ullman

It's questionable if the new high efficiency furnaces would even cause an explosion. The burner section in many of them is sealed and draws in combustion air from outside.

Reply to
trader4

Hint. A de-glassed light bulb makes a pretty good ignitor After a blast, who can tell if the bulb was broken before or by the blast??? And the lamp may have been connected to that same timer for 15 years previously - a totally legitimate application. The folks are not home

- the light is on a timer.

What super CSI is going to figure that one out????

Reply to
clare

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.