OK first of all why won't the light fit on your old box? It looks like a s
tandard plastic ceiling box - maybe attached the same way as the loose box
you posted a pic of, so removing it might involve breaking it apart and/or
using a hacksaw unless you just give up and bust up the drywall. Second, i
t'll be much easier to use either an 'old work box' or a metal box with a s
eparate hanger bar if you do replace it, although I don't see the need...
On Monday, October 14, 2013 11:53:08 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:
I asked that question a week ago. He said something about
the holes not being in the right place. I said:
"Those boxes both seem to have holes in the same
places to me. I've yet to come across a light
fixture that didn't work with the screw holes
in existing boxes and that existing box you
have doesn't look unusual to me.
It's an interesting LED light that he's found. I've
never seen one like that. They call it recessed, but
it actually sticks out 2", but it does attach to a
4" ceiling box.
It think this is it on HD. If not, it's the same type.
If link doesn't work, you can search for disk light.
Take a look at: http://www.lsgc.com/fixtures/glimpse/ Is this what you're
talking about? If so, it's an award-winning product from the 2012 Lighting
for Tomorrow Competition ( www.lightingfortomorrow.com ). Nice idea to
make it screw onto a J-Box and it looks better than a bare 40 or 60-watt
It however does not fit the box I have installed now (notice difference in screw
that is what prompted the question about difficulty of removing the existing one
and installing a new one in its place.
yes, that is the same light from HD. Thanks for the link to lsgc.com.
Can you post a picture of the light? I'm still not understanding how it
couldn't fit, all the pics you've posted are of pretty standard ceiling
boxes and a ceiling light intended for mounting on a box ought to fit
all of them.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
I am just stepping into the conversation now - without seeing all the
history - but lamp canopies do NOT fit the cover holes of round or
octagon ceiling boxes. That is what the T-Bar (or cross bar) is for.
The bar fastens to the box. With or without a fixture tube, the
fixture fastens to the cross bar, and the canopy, if it screws to the
mounting, is screwed to the cross bar - NOT to the box.
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:22:00 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
He posted a pic of the light already, but it's just a pic
of the outside of the light. What he should post is the
link to the light at HD, the install instructions,
something that shows why the mount for the new light
won't fit the current box.
I went to HD website and they have
a couple that look like it. It's not really recessed, it
sticks out 2" and it's LED. So that apparently gives
them enough room for the power supply. That explains
how a "recessed" light can go on a box like that. It's
not really recessed. The one I saw
at HD online didn't have install instructions or anything that
showed the back of the light, how it connects, etc.
In the beginning, he posted a pic of the current box and
his new proposed box. He keeps saying the holes are
in different locations, but from the pic, they seemed
the same to me. The other obvious problem is his
proposed box is the nail in style and we all know that
isnt' going in, unless he tears open the drywall. He
needs an old work box that's rated to hold a fixture.
That assumes he can get the existing box out without
opening the drywall.
But before we get to all that, I'm with you. That old
box is plastic, which means it's not some strange 100
year old box. I've yet to see a box that looked like
that which would not connect to a common light fixture.
On 10/17/2013 09:09 AM, email@example.com wrote:
I poked around the HD site, couldn't find anything. Looks like a
Cree-made product (good, probably high CRI) but I also couldn't find a
picture of anything other than the room side of the light, or any
Worst case scenario, since after my original post suggesting a fan box,
he's clarified that this is over a kitchen sink, so no need for a fan
rated box. At this point I would bust out the old box if it really
won't work, and go buy a metal octagon box and a steel hanger (e.g. Raco
8325 - that's the NM cable version, if your house uses armored cable,
you'd need a box with different cable clamps but it would look simlar)
and install that through the 4" hole in the drywall. It'll be a pain in
the ass, as it will require screwing the hanger to the joists by hand
with a plain old screwdriver through a really small hole, but if that
doesn't work, the light really doesn't fit a "standard ceiling box."
I'd still like a picture of *why* it won't work, though, because a) I'm
just naturally curious and b) understanding it more fully might help
come up with a more creative solution.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
On Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:35:38 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
Why does he need to do that instead of just using one of
the old work boxes that are rated for holding fixtures up
to a few pounds? It just goes in the hole and has tabs that
you then expand out by turning screws to hold it in. That
of course assumes the existing hole isn't too big to fit
said new box.
I've never tried to get an old box out like that, but
if it's nailed in there good, I would think it would be
a bitch to do without damaging the drywall. And if you
can't use an old work box, then it's gonna be a bitch
getting the new one in.
Which is why I said if it was in it's own
separate little ceiling space above the sink, like in a
lot of houses that I've seen, another option
is to just take out a piece of drywall. It's not such a
If it's part of the main ceiling, then it becomes more
involved, ie you'd have to paint the whole ceiling, etc.
I think he took down the original pics he put up.
But he had a pic of the old box and the proposed new
box, which was the nail in type. He said that you
can see that the holes are in different locations. I
looked at the two pics and they both seemed to have
holes in the same places, like the boxes we're all
familiar with. And he never gave any more specifics
other than that. Even if the holes are in different
spots, one would think you could make an interposer
if you will, eg a strip of metal or something that
could adapt it. I wonder if this could be a USA/CA
thing, metric issue of something?
IDK, but like I said, I've never seen a modern plastic
box like that where it would not fit to a new
standard light fixture. If he could take some pics
of how it mounts, the backside, bracket, whatever
and tell us exactly what doesn't line up with what
maybe there is a solution.
replying to firstname.lastname@example.org , TC wrote:
to help clarify, there is only one picture available on Home Depot website, none
of the back of light. here is a pic of the 2 boxes in question. the one the left
has the design the light is can fit into. yellow represents the base of the
the box I have installed is the one on the right. notice the difference in hole
alignment. this is the best I can do to identify problem. need to replace one
box with the other to make it work.
thanks for helping with suggestions.
Ah, I get it now. some of the working bits of the fixture actually
protrude into the box, and it's poorly designed because if it were
designed right it'd have clearance for that box.
Can you cut part of the light away to make it work? That'd be easiest.
(I can't tell without seeing pics of the back of the light.) NB: that
will of course void the UL listing and a kitten will die with every
light you so modify. YHBW.
Next suggestion, if that won't work. You should be able to tell which
side of the box the stud is on. If you can't, try probing around the
edge of it with a piece of stiff wire; that should solve it.
Then, take a sawzall and cut the box in two places near where the nail
tabs are located. BE VERY CAREFUL not to get near any cables. If you
cut through the jacket of any cables you just made yourself a LOT more
work. Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious
reasons. That should weaken the box enough that if you set a piece of
dowel, socket extension, something against the back of the box and smack
it with a hammer, it should break apart and go up into the ceiling,
where you can retrieve the pieces and then remove the nail on bits from
the stud. Sawzall will help here too.
To install a new box, either use a metal box with a bar hanger as I
suggested in a previous post (you install the bar hanger separately from
the box, is how this can work with only a 4" access hole.) You will
need a little bit of wire to do this as if you use a metal box code
requires that you attach the ground wire to the box. If it is long
enough you might be able to wrap it around the box's ground screw and
still have enough left to wire nut to the fixture's ground wire.
Alternately, if the drywall is solid and your new light is not too
heavy, they make blue plastic "old work" boxes with tabs that clamp the
box to the drywall itself; I think someone suggested that as well. Like
Note in the description it says "not intended for fixture support in
ceilings" - use discretion here if the light is too heavy to be
supported only by drywall nor not. Personally I would be more
comfortable with the metal box/bar hanger solution.
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
On Saturday, October 19, 2013 5:10:30 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:
Yes, I see the problem now too. Really dumb design they
made to not have allowed it to work with either box. The
fact that it puts part of the fixture into the box raises
another interesting question. Despite what they claim,
can this be installed in a regular ceiling box and be
code compliant? There are box fill rules and when you
start using the box for the fixture itself, it's going
to use up some of that volume, especially when per the
new drawings, the fixture consumes the entire surface
area of the box dimensions. If it extends much at
all into the box, I would think an extra deep box might
be required to be code compliant. So, since he needs
to install a new box, I'd get a deep one, if possible.
Yes, and just so he understands, if he does cut the cable,
then he has two choices. Put another ceiling box nearby
that the undamaged cable can reach to, then run
a new cable from there to where the light is. That leaves you
with a new junction box you have to cover with a blank plate,
because it has to be accessible and it doesn't look pretty.
Whether that is even possible,
depends on how the cable that you can't see runs. If for example
it comes from above, straight down into the old box, then
you don't have means to do the above. If it runs across sideways,
then you probably can, assuming you can free up enough cable.
And that could easily involve opening the drywall.
Option two is to trace the cable back to somewhere that a new
junction box could be added and remain accessible or where it's
an existing box somewhere. Adding a new box like that could
be fairly easy if there is accessible attic above. If there
is a second story above, etc, then it's usually a nightmare
and you're back to option 1.
So, before I did try to cut out the old box, I'd be 99%
sure I'm not going to damage the cable. Which, may be a good
reason to consider just opening up the drywall to do
the work that way. As I said
before, it's going over a sink, and many times that area is
it's only it's own little section of drywall, so you don't
have to then paint the whole kitchen ceiling, etc. The tradeoff
is that with that approach, there is guaranteed more work involved
than if he uses the cut it/tear it out method and it comes
out fairly easy.
Personally, the first thing I'd do is do a search
to find out if there is another similar LED light
available that doesn't have this mounting problem.
It's not an inherent problem that would be common
to all lights, just this one did a bad design. Or
perhaps consider other lighting options. It's a
neat light, but it does have one big drawback....
Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious
It's an LED light so it only weighs a couple pounds, if
that. As I said before, there are old work boxes similar
to the type you're talking about that are rated for holding
fixtures up to some number of pounds, eg 3, 5 etc.
Instead of the swing out ears they have metal side pieces
that expand outwards. I wouldn't use them for hanging
anything of much substance, but they are perfect for that
small LED light.
On 10/20/2013 8:18 AM, email@example.com wrote:
Protruding into the box certainly sounds bizarre.
Far as I know there has not been a link to a HomeDepot product.
No information from the manufacturer.
No picture of the back of the light.
He found it in the "recessed/can lights section".
It looks like a trim for a recessed light.
My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be
mounted on a box.
Further speculation - the OP knows it is not intended to be mounted on a
Additional substantiation - the OP is from the homemoanershub.
Maybe use a BFH?
On Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:08:44 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
That I agree with. You have to wonder about box fill limits
and if it really can be installed in a std depth box.
That was my initial impression too. But if you go to HD
and search, there is a "disk light" LED fixture and it
looks like the one he showing in the picture. It extends
down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact
exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture
that attaches to a ceiling box.
And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't
I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly
it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit
flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him
to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?
Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline
of how the back of the fixture extends into the box and why
it won't work with some boxes. Why would a trim piece have an
outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least
some ceiling boxes?
If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar
ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting
Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can.
Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.
It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.
The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box
(Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And 4"
octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of
box? depth needed by light in box?
As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely
ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable
space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the
calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the
fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)
I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice.
Like a link to the product and instructions.
I have never seen a light that requires much of the fixture to be inside
the mounting box. Apparently no one else here has either.
The link I found would have made it clear that is what is happening.
Trader's link doesn't have installation instructions, but they are
probably available from the manufacturer once you know the mfger &
model, in the link.
People here often come up with alternate solutions, which requires
information. Other boxes suggested (which are easier to install) may not
work with this fixture. The manufacturer's "standard 4" J-boxes" has at
least 2 problems (one of which you found).
The comments about wire fill, which the manufacturer ignores are
relevant in any case.
I think it is unlikely you can remove the existing box and install a
similar one (without the extra post) without damaging the ceiling.
I might try removing the extra post with something like a router first.
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