How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?

[pilgrim]

Do they call you "Walking Eagle?" You are too full of shit to fly.

pilgrim

[trader4]

So what, did all those older houses disappear or have other grounding means added by magic?

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Read:

NEC 2011 250.52 Grounding Electrodes (A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding (1) Metal Underground Water Pipe

Under that section it says that an underground water pipe that is 10 ft long is permitted for use as a grounding electrode. It goes on to list the other permitted electrodes as well.

Even if what you say is true, which per NEC cited about I don't believe is correct, HeyBub would still be wrong because he made no distinction between new services and old ones that rely solely on the water pipe for grounding. They have no other grounding electrode and without the water pipe connection, the system would be ungrounded and a danger.

[Doug Miller]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news:7740703c-994c-402f-93a5- [e-mail]:

No, all that's necessary is that it meet Code at the time of installation.

Keep reading, and you will discover that the Code does *not* permit that to be the *only* grounding electrode.

Only because you didn't read far enough... :-)

Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added.

[Doug Miller]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news:7740703c-994c-402f-93a5- [e-mail]:

No, all that's necessary is that it meet Code at the time of installation.

Keep reading, and you will discover that the Code does *not* permit that to be the *only* grounding electrode.

Only because you didn't read far enough... :-)

Yes, and that's why, when the service from the municipal water supply is replaced with plastic, the home *must* have an additional grounding electrode added.

[hrhofmann]

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Whenever any changes are made, the resulting installation must meet the current new code, even if it originally met the older code. This is true of all locations I have ever heard of.

[Red]

On May 27, 8:14 pm, Doug Miller wrote: .

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Does the NEC state how the ground wire is to be attached to the rod? If the connections are via a standard clamp to the rod I'm having a problem understanding why a cable splice doesn't allow using a split bolt, which is a very tight clamp also.

[trader4]

Yes, which is why what Heybub posted, is incorrect and dangerous:

"The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. "

On one of those older houses, it IS THE GROUND and removing it would effect the electrical system and it's safety.

to be the *only*

Read what I posted and you'll see that is exactly what I said, which, for convenience, I'll repost:

"I would not (be) an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods. "

So, why did you say I was wrong and Heybub was 100% correct?

Unbelievable arrogance.

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I never said otherwise. What you said was wrong. You agreed with Heybub that a water pipe cannot be used as part of a grounding system and that it's only tied to ground to prevent a plumber from being shocked. Now, apparently, you agree that per NEC an underground water pipe can indeed can be one of the grounding electrodes, it just can't be the *only* one.

Feel free to apologize at any time.

[Doug Miller]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news:84418c7c-6b2f-4c2a-bf40- [e-mail]:

Which is why it's a Code violation to do that...

I think we've all been misunderstanding each other.

That's not what he said.

Wait, you want *me* to apologize because *you* misread HeyBub's post?

[Bill]

Any electrical appliance can have a short from a "hot" wire to its metal case, and in-turn to ground. Like a furnace, washing machine, dryer, refrigerator, garbage disposal, dish washer, electric water heater, etc.

Shorts of this nature I have personally seen...

-An electrical wire is connected to an appliance through a metal hole with sharp sides and no "wire clamp" is used. The sharp edges of the metal cut into the wire.

-An electric range had defective insulation on its internal wiring. High heat caused the insulation to shrink back several inches and thus expose bare electrical wire which then touched the metal frame of the range.

-High heat in a bathroom light fixture - just from the light bulbs - caused the old wiring insulation to become brittle, crumble and fall off, then the bare electrical wire touched the metal light fixture frame and its attached metal medicine cabinet.

-An electric water heater heating element had an internal short to ground.

-A garage door opener had a short to ground which energized the opener and via that the metal garage door.

Just one strand of a stranded electrical wire can stick out and touch a metal case. And electric motors are notorious for leaking electricity to ground - they are many times open at the ends for ventilation and crud can get in there which will cause a short to ground.

A modern "to code" grounding system will protect you and your family from being electrocuted should any of the above happen. Thus do it right and have the work inspected to be sure it is done right.

That is how these electrical codes come to be in the first place... Someone gets electrocuted, then they come up with methods of wiring which will keep that from happening again (if you follow the codes).

[jamesgang]

On Sunday, May 26, 2013 12:06:57 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:

e steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Ground ing Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house. Everyb ody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can' t bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday w eekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes o ut to inspect. If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electr ode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do h ave four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (list ed for that application) seems to be what I want. What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the El ectricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help. You can't believ e everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a st andard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible ????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approv ed? I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems t hat what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and sh ow it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???" What do I look for in a sp lice (listed for the application)? ++++++++++++++++++++++ While the topic i s open, I'll broaden the question. Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the w ater heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' p ipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But ei ther should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away. There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Groun ding Electrode" as long is you hook to it < 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I cou ld easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place wher e the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performanc e worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at t he other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I start ed. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I s tarted 40 years ago. The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, ru n it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods. Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of t he existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code. I don't want to repla ce the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the groundin g electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the att ic. I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedanc e. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval b ased on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four option s to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that applicati on...GRRRRR!!! The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy wh o will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option! I'm in Was hington County, Oregon, USA Suggestions? Thanks, mike

I'm casting a vote for the run a new copper wire to two grounding rods on t he side of the house where the box is. And forget about the water pipes. I think once you mess with it most inspectors will require you to bring it up to current code. Current code calls for 2 grounds. You can pick up a c ouple ground rods and some solid copper wire for probably less than $100.

[trader4]

Which is why I posted to correct what Heybub had said. He posted:

"Let's say that a different way or two:

• A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply.

• The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock. "

Good to see you agree that I'm right.

No, I haven't misunderstood anything at all.

Both of you failed to recognize that:

A - In the older homes the water pipe could be the only grounding electrode.

B - Even today a water pipe may be used as a grounding electrode as part of a grounding system

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No, I want you to apologize for claiming that I was wrong, when everything I posted is correct and what you and Heybub posted is what's wrong. Here is what you posted:

"Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic. "

Per the NEC, NEC 2011 250.52 A 1, which you apparently now accept, it clearly lists an underground water pipe as one type of GROUNDING CONDUCTOR which may be used as part of a grounding system. It's listed right there along with ground rods, Ufers, etc. Therefore it's not true that the sole purpose of connecting the water pipe to the grounding system is to ensure that it as at the same potential. That would be BONDING.

[HerHusband]

Hi Mike,

Once you replace the steel pipe with plastic, it is no longer an effective grounding conductor. You will need to run a new 4 gauge continuous ground wire from the breaker panel to two 8' copper ground rods spaced at least six feet apart. Forget about the current attic route, just run the ground wire the shortest route from the panel to the rods.

Then you need to run an additional ground wire from the breaker panel to any metal piping that remains. This bonds the plumbing to the electrical ground so there is no electrical potential between the pipe and ground. Of course, if you have more than 10' or so of continous buried steel pipe left, it will add to the grounding system also.

If you have steel pipe inside your house that is interupted with a section of plastic pipe, you should install a jumper wire across that section to bond all of the steel pipe together.

You should also have ground wires bonding your telephone and cable TV lines. It's all to eliminate shocks and make sure everything is at the same potential. Picture the guy with his hand on the breaker panel who accidentally touches the steel water pipe. If they're bonded, no problem. If their isolated, there could be a voltage potential between them which could cause a shock.

Good luck,

Anthony Watson Mountain Software

[trader4]

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Thank you Bud. I was hoping you would comment. I was getting a little lonely here..... What's amazing is how some are quick to be very assertive and tell you that you are wrong, then when it turns out they are wrong, instead of just saying something like, "yeah, I wasn't thinking right on that one....", instead they try to maintain that they are right.

[bud--]

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But as you agree later, there is not a code problem with houses built with just a water pipe electrode when that was all that was required.

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Trader is right. You are wrong. You backpedal in later posts.

A metal water service pipe, at least 10 ft in the earth, MUST be used as part of the earthing electrode system, just as it has been required since time began.

A "supplemental" electrode for metal water service pipe has been required for a long time if the metal pipe might be replaced by plastic. With plastic becoming more common, a "supplemental" electrode is now required. But a metal municipal water system is the best earthing electrode that is available at a house.

If the water service pipe is plastic, interior metal water pipe systems must be "bonded" to the ground system with rules that are not quite the same as using the water service as an earthing electrode.

For a lot of new construction a "concrete encased electrode" (commonly called a Ufer ground) must be created and included as part of the earthing system. This is a good earthing electrode (and is used as the "supplemental" electrode, where required). Ground rods are lousy.

Which is irrelevant to trader's point.

HeyBub has it exactly wrong, just as he has at least 2 times previously.

============================ If I understand the OP right, there will no longer be a metal water service pipe 10 ft metal in the ground. So it no longer needs to be connected as an earthing electrode. The interior water pipe system needs to be bonded, but it is by the connection at the water heater. I have not read why the existing ground rods are not adequate, but the distance seems long. As others suggest, I would probably install 2 new rods 8 ft apart with a short run to the service panel.

[mike]

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I got to talk with the inspector yesterday. His answer was, "yes, I know what the code says, but I also understand common sense." He'll allow a bonding bridge in the attic to attach the wires to the ground rods.

He also said that he wasn't gonna go look in the attic anyway, so he'd never know. Looks like I'm good to go. Just takes $100 for the permit.

Turns out that I have a poor-man's Ufer ground. There's one 22' pipe running in/under the concrete slab of the garage.

I got curious about he path and built a poor-mans pipe locator. Wound some turns on a ferrite rod and plugged it into the microphone input of my Dell Axim X51v PDA. I have a program that does a FFT spectrum analysis with 70 dB dynamic range. Hooked a function generator at 5 kHz...peak response of the inductor...from the water spigot to ground. The width of the signal path over the pipe in concrete was way wider than the width over a wire.

When the dust settles on the repiping project, I'm gonna experiment with differential coils to pinpoint the center of the field. Any ideas/references on sensor design?

Sounds like an opportunity for a pipe locator that plugs into your phone. With several small signal sources at different frequencies, you could use the spectrum display to map all the underground systems in the area in one pass. It's too complicated for the average operator, but could easily be automated. Would be a great preliminary service device.

[trader4]

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Am I the only one here wondering how the wire for the earth ground winds up running up into the attic? Can't you get a direct route to a nearby ground rod? It apparently was connected to the water service pipe, but why does it have to go up to an attic first?

[hrhofmann]

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Seems to me that the original grounding routing was somewhat strange all right, but maybe done by someone who wasn't too bright or familiar with electricity and surge curents due to lightning and/or faults on the power lines as well as faults within the dwelling itself.

[gfretwell]

I am not surprised. The water obviously comes in somewhere pretty far from the electrical service. I would punch in a couple of rods next to the service entrance, just for that purpose. (lightning) You also want to bond the phone and cable there if that is where they come in.

[mike]

There's a doorway between the water pipe and the breaker box. All the power goes thru the attic anyway. And there's no easy access from the box to outside. The wire is already in the attic, I'm gonna use it. And the inspector says it's ok to do so.

And it gets worse. Back in '72 when the house was built, they put the service entrance/meter on the side of the garage and ran a wire thru the attic and down the wall to the breaker box where resides the first place there's any current limiting.

I'm just thankful they don't make me rewire the whole house. ;-(

[bud--]

An important point for surge protection.

When the GEC went through the attic to the water service pipe, which was an earthing electrode, you could attach the ground rod wire to the GEC in the attic. The attachment could be an 'ordinary' splice, like a split bolt. What you will have isn't very different.

The length of the wire to the rods is undesirable, but rods suck to start with.

My impression is that inspectors these days are more likely to make reasonable accommodations and less likely to enforce their own electrical code. Nice that you checked and it worked out.

I expect you are referring to the service disconnect (and current limiting) is to be "outside ... or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."