How do I splice a "Grounding Electrode Conductor" from the breaker panel?

Domino Effect... I need a new water pipe to the street. They wanna replace steel with plastic. Home built in 1972 uses the water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode", which will be severed at the other end of the house.

Everybody tells me a different story, but the common result is that you just can't bridge the cut pipes with a wire. Of course, this happened on a holiday weekend, so I can't go to the source. With all the budget cutbacks and hour reductions, I'm not sure I can still access the inspector before he comes out to inspect.

If I understand NEC 250.64C correctly, the "Grounding Electrode Conductor" must be continuous with NO Splices!!... EXCEPT that you do have four options to splice it... "Irreversible Compression Connector" (listed for that application) seems to be what I want.

What the heck is that? Is that anything like a butt splice? The guy at Home Depot shows me to the Electricos aisle, but has no more than a dumb look for help.

You can't believe everything you read on the interweb, but there's discussion of using a standard compression clamp with the bolt head cut off to make it irreversible????...except if you cut off the "green" head, does that make it not approved?

I have limited experience with the electrical inspector, but it seems that what he had for breakfast affects the pass/fail decision more than what the code says. When I go get the permit, I'd like to take one along and show it to the inspector..."Is this gonna pass???"

What do I look for in a splice (listed for the application)?

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While the topic is open, I'll broaden the question.

Current "Grounding Electrode Conductor" goes from the breaker panel up to the attic, over and down to hook to the water heater cold pipe. That pipe goes down the wall and connects to a 22' pipe in or under the concrete, not sure which, to the outside spigot. But either should be a better ground than two ground rods 25 feet away.

There is some verbiage in the NEC about being able to use a water pipe as the "Grounding Electrode" as long is you hook to it < 5' from where it hits the dirt. Not sure if that applies to this situation... I've got about 7 feet. I could easily extend the wire with the above-mentioned splice to the place where the same pipe enters the concrete. Makes the actual electrical performance worse, but maybe meets code if I do it? And if I bridge the cut pipe at the other end of the house, I'm still no worse off than I was before I started. Yes, I understand that the electrical code doesn't care about where I started 40 years ago.

The alternative seems to be to add 20' to the wire, run it down the outside wall and use the two ground rods.

Every option hinges on the splice issue. IF I could just connect a new wire to the middle of the existing wire, I'd be good to go. Installing two ground rods is probably easier than trying to interpret the electrical code.

I don't want to replace the Grounding Electrode Conductor. I watched an electrician snake wires down the wall past the input wires to the breaker box, but I'm not willing to risk arc-fault == death to try that myself. I could run the grounding electrode conductor out the bottom of the box and along the garage wall, but I'd rather not do that either, if I can just splice the wire in the attic.

I'm an electronic engineer, so I understand volts and amps and impedance. What I don't understand is what it takes to predict inspector approval based on an NEC that says you can't do that except that you have four options to do exactly that...as long as you use items approved for that application...GRRRRR!!!

The easy option is that the plumber has an electrical guy who will make it work for a mere $400 more. I dislike that option!

I'm in Washington County, Oregon, USA

Suggestions? Thanks, mike

Reply to
mike
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Just run a new grounding conductor from the panel out the nearest side wall and to two new 8' ground rods. Forget about the old water supply as the ground, just bond the remaining metallic piping in the house to ground at the panel.

Reply to
Pete C.

Thanks for the advice, but that's not what I wanted advice on. I want advice on splicing.

Reply to
mike

It is like a butt spice but a lot bigger. You really need the right crimping tool to do it. If you look at the wires coming down a power pole you will frequently see one of these splices but it is also like the one up at your service head. Th trick is finding a guy with that crimping tool. You might be able to rent one. You are still going to need another electrode in addition to the water pipe, even if it is metal.

Reply to
gfretwell

Best to do this right and take your time. Take plenty of pictures of your main electrical service panel and that area. This is usually located where the main wires come into the house. There is usually a main panel there or main shutoff.

And take pictures of that area standing way back so you can see the wires going to the house, the main panel, and the ground in that area.

Also pictures of the plumbing work. Take a picture where the current ground connects to the water pipe.

See what size main breaker you have like it may say 200 on it for example (200 amps).

Go to a store and see what different sizes of ground rods they have and what sizes of bare copper ground wire they have. Ask what sizes are used in your area. (Don't buy anything yet, just take notes of what sizes they have.)

Then take those pictures to the electrical inspectors office. Confirm that you can install two ground rods spaced 6 foot apart. Tell them what size ground wire and what size ground rods you are going to use. Show them on the pictures where you are going to drive those into the ground. Ask if that will be ok and if there is anything else you need to do.

Note: Be DARN sure there are no underground lines (like natural gas) running in that area. If you do not know, call the utility locate service ("Call before you dig" number).

Then get an electrical permit. They will inspect your work to be sure it is ok.

If you are not comfortable doing this work, hire an electrician. And in either case get the work inspected.

If you do this work yourself, turn off the main power to the house and use rubber gloves when connecting / disconnecting the bare copper ground wire to the main electric panel or with connections to the water pipes. Sometimes there can be electricity present on a ground - from your house or even from a neighbor's house! (Everything is connected via neutral lines and metal water pipes.)

Reply to
Bill

I would leave the existing cold water service line as is, and just move the new plastic one far enough to install.

The old now unused water line should still provide a good ground but add 2 ground rods all bonded together electrically...

How old is your main service, if its still fuses it might be time to upgrade to a new main breaker box.

Reply to
bob haller

*Two ways to splice a grounding electrode conductor that usually passes inspection: Use a "C" Tap with the proper crimping tool and die or weld the wires together using Cadweld.

The crimp must be made with the proper crimping tool. I think some dies will leave a mark for the inspector so that he or she can tell if the proper die was used. The "C" Taps are usually only available at an electrical supply company. Sometimes they rent or will loan a crimper out.

The Cadweld is an excellent way to go, but the tools are expensive.

Link to "C" Tap:

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Link to die chart:

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Link to Cadweld:

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Since you are going to pull a permit for this you should submit your plan and a description of the materials along with the permit application. On unusual jobs I will write a one page "Scope of Work" describing what I intend to do and mention the materials and hand that in with manufacturers cut sheets and the permit application. This way I will know ahead of time if the inspector will approve the work or not. Someone else mentioned taking pictures of the cut wire and the new pipe and give that to the inspector. That is a good idea. It is better to give as much information as possible up front instead of finding out after the work is completed that the inspector will not approve of it. If the inspector does not agree with your plan, ask him or her for an alternative.

Reply to
John Grabowski

I did see some interesting "one shot" cad welds at a trade show but they were not cheap. (disposable mold) I doubt anyone really wants to shoot one in the house anyway. The crimp is the way to go if you can come up with the crimper. If you can get the existing GEC outside to a rod, any extensions can come from there without a permanent splice..

Reply to
gfretwell

The "ground connection" to the cold water service is not to *provide* a ground but to ground the pipes so that they do not become live and electrocute the plumber.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

Mike,

Section 250-81(a) requires another conductor, as well as the water pipe. Since you'll need to install this conductor anyway, why not just pound in the appropriate number of grounding rods and forget about the water pipe?

Dave M.

Reply to
David L. Martel

*Dave, that section does not exist in the 2011 National Electrical Code.
Reply to
John Grabowski

2008 either, try 250.53(D)(2)

(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8)....

Reply to
gfretwell

Let's say that a different way or two:

  • A "ground" to a water pipe is for the benefit of the water distribution system, not the electrical supply.

  • The electrical distribution system will work just fine without a water-pipe ground - a water-pipe ground in NO WAY influences the electrical system. The purpose of a water-pipe ground, and its only purpose, is to protect the water system plumber from an electrical shock.

Reply to
HeyBub

after finding ground rods rotted away, the old water line was still servicable.

this when I was a dish dealer for awhile and went looking for ground connections

Reply to
bob haller

I would not an expert on the current code on this subject. But I believe the above is incorrect. I believe in the past an underground water service pipe was allowed to serve as the service ground. And I think even today it can serve as part of it, but needs to be supplemented by other grounding methods, eg ground rods.

It does if it's an older system and the water pipe is the only earth ground.

Per above, I believe that is incorrect.

Reply to
trader4

That is true according to current NEC. However a metal water service entrance used to be acceptable as a grounding electrode under previous versions and there are plenty of houses out there with the panel bonded to the water service and no grounding rods.

If you mess with any pieces of this system, by the book ground rods ought to be added to be compliant with current codes...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

If I fail to connect my electrical system to a water-pipe-ground, what would be the source of the electrical shock that the plumber might receive?

Reply to
pilgrim

An incidental short to an ungrounded conductor or perhaps a bad water heater element.

Reply to
gfretwell

" snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" wrote in news:afb2620e-b43c-48a2-8acf- snipped-for-privacy@k3g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:

It used to be... but hasn't been for at least 20 years.

Your understanding is incorrect. The *sole* reason that metal water pipes need to be tied to the electrical system's grounding electrodes is to ensure that the plumbing system is at ground potential, no matter what. The requirements for grounding the electrical system are the same, whether the water pipes are metal or plastic.

That is no longer permitted in new construction.

Your belief is incorrect. HeyBub has it exactly right.

Reply to
Doug Miller

pilgrim wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Lots of knuckleheads drape extension cords, or branch circuit cables, over water pipes. Sometimes, insulation wears through...

Reply to
Doug Miller

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