Does NEC require a Main Breaker Panel inside the home?

[iwdplz]

My brother is purchasing a home in Vermont and the following is holding up the negotiations after home inspection; he's trying to decide if the seller should pay for this (whether it's worth the risk in the negotiation because my brother has already negotiated a rock bottom deal on the house). The custom home was built in 1999. The general home inspector says that since the main panel in the basement doesn't have a main breaker, it is a code violation. Instead the main breaker is outside near the pole which the home inspector is calling a "supplementary disconnect." He says the main panel needs to be replaced which would cost thousands. He didn't tell us what NEC code section was violated so we asked him but it will take a few days for him to retrieve this info, but seller and buyer are anxious to proceed sooner.

I reviewed relevant sections of the 2008 NEC and it says that it is fine to have the main disconnect outside the house and the NEC chapter on the disconnects didn't say that the disconnect has to be inside the main panel which is attached to the home. I understand that in some installations the main disconnect is placed separately outside so that firefighters can get to it.

Is there a code violation that my brother should ask the seller to remedy? I am not sure how the electrical inspector could miss something so basic when the home was built in 1999. That makes me wonder if the general home inspector is correct or not. Or was there an update to the NEC in the past few years? What section/paragraph is not in compliance?

[charlie]

where is the rule that says everything a home inspector says has to be changed actually has to be changed?

your brother is the buyer. he can accept or deny anything that he wants from the inspector report.

one would think that if it did not meet code when built, the inspection done for the occupancy certificate would have been denied.

what did the code enforcement department of your town say when you called them?

[Larry The Snake Guy]

Is this a home inspector hired by the buyer or seller, or was he sent by the bank?

I don't have my NEC book with me and I don't know the tchnical answer to your question, but around here, it would be unusual to have a main breaker inside the house. It is usually in a box attached to the outside of the house. If it's easily accessable from the property, from gound level, I fail to see why being away from the house is a bad thing... (Bu, that doesn't mean it isn't against code.)

[bob haller]

l home inspector

Home inspectors arent experts!!

Had 2 home buyers, first buyer backed out after home inspection.

First one wrote up no GFCI on sump pump in garage

So I upgraded but buyer backed out:(

Second home insoector wrote up GFCI, stating sump pump shouldnt be on GFCI

I couldnt win:(:(:(

[Wayne Whitney]

An important distinction to understand is that once the service conductors from the utility hit the first disconnect and circuit breaker, any conductors after that point are feeder conductors, not service conductors. Outside feeders are covered by Article 225, not Article 230 (Service conductors).

Another point to note is that generally if the main lug only panel has no more than six breakers in it, it can count as a disconnect; it doesn't need to have a main breaker.

The relevant part of the National Electric Code is Article 225 Part II. From the 2008 version, here are 225.31 and 225.32:

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure. 225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized. [230.6 defines when a conductor is considered outside a building.]

If the pole with the disconnect is right next to the house (some jurisdictions use a standard of within 5 feet), then usually that is interpreted to satisfy these requirements. Otherwise, you definitely need a main disconnect at the house which should be outside or inside "nearest the point of entrance of the conductors". This last phrase is open to interpretation and varying by jurisdiction; some might allow a maximum of 15 feet inside, others more like 15 inches.

I don't know the history of these requirements, but I expect they were in force in 1999.

Many panels can be field configured with a main breaker or as main lugs only, so it is possible that a simple kit will add a main breaker. Failing that, depending on the routing of the feeder from the pole disconnect to the main-lug-only panel inside the house, you might be able to install a stand-alone disconnect before the existing panel, so you don't need to mess with the panel branch circuits at all.

Cheers, Wayne

[zxcvbob]

My knowledge of NEC is kind of dated (1992).

The home inspector may be an idiot; this is not unusual. But it does raise an issue about grounding. If the main disconnect is not in the same panel as the breakers, the breaker panel becomes a subpanel. The neutral should be bonded to earth at the disconnect and separate ground and neutrals wires should be run to the house. Mobile homes are wired this way.

Is the main disconnect a breaker, or at least fused?

Bob

[RBM]

Keep in mind that house inspectors, are not by any stretch, electrical inspectors. Nec 230.70 A (1) allows the service disconnect to be outside in a "readily accessible location". It doesn't require it to be on the house or structure. My guess would be that in 1999, the electrical inspector having jurisdiction, found the current location acceptable. If the seller has a C/O on the house, I would not be concerned

>

[Doug Miller]

Unless there is a specific *local* code requiring that, the inspector is FOS.

That is *explicitly permitted* by the National Electrical Code: "The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors." [2008 NEC, Article 230.70(A)(1)]

Nonsense.

Let me guess: this "inspector" is *also* a general contractor, right? And he's probably already offered to make your brother a good price on the job, right? Which, when you get competing bids, will turn out to not be such a good priceafter all.

This should be fun.

No doubt it will. I imagine that *if* he ever answers, he'll say something along the lines of "I can't find the exact paragraph, but I know it's a violation, just trust me on this, I have __ years in this business and I know what I'm doing and blah blah blah blah".

So ignore it, and close the sale. Even if the inspector were right -- which he definitely is NOT -- it doesn't matter. Real estate contracts are nearly always contingent on the home passing an inspection, but that's mostly so that a buyer isn't committed to buying a house that has a previously unknown (or undisclosed) serious flaw, with no way to back out of the contract. If the buyer is aware of the flaw and wants to buy the house anyway, so what? *Any* provision of *any* contract can be changed if all of the parties to the contract agree to the change. Your brother can probably *unilaterally* waive the inspection contingency clause; there's certainly no reason why the seller should object, so even if both of them must agree to the waiver in writing, obtaining the seller's signature should be only a formality.

Exactly so.

None that I can see.

The electrical inspector didn't miss something. Like I said before, the home inspector is FOS.

It wouldn't matter even if there was. Electrical installations are required to comply with the Code that is in effect at the time the work is done, not with whatever Code changes might occur later.

None.

[dpb]

iwdplz wrote: ...

...

No NEC violation; all NEC says is a device must be provided "at or near" the point where the service wires enter the building to disconnect the entire building from its source of supply. The other requirement is that there be overcurrent protection for the entire installation. If that outside disconnect is fused or a circuit breaker, that's done as well. Inside/outside location of this service equipment isn't mentioned.

There could possibly be local restrictions in addition to those of the NEC but it would seem unusual this one would be one.

As for the what to do question, as somebody else noted, check w/ the local jurisdiction as to the actual requirements. All you really need is the ability to get any required COO to close the deal safely; while could just ignore it and go on wouldn't really want to do so until know there won't be an issue in occupancy in areas that may require such a thing.

_IF_ (the proverbial "big if") the need to install an inside disconnect were to actually arise, it would seem that the simplest would be to simply add a disconnect in front of the existing panel, run the feed to it and then to the panel. That could be a few hundreds, not thousands. There is some convenience in the rare occasions that one does want to shut power off for some maintenance activity perhaps, but if the above requirements are met and meet any local code, you're good to go.

--

[RBM]

You're correct, if the main disconnect isn't in the service panel, separate neutral and ground conductors are run from the disconnect to the panel, but now you're way over the capabilities of a home inspector

[Wayne Whitney]

An important distinction to understand is that once the service conductors from the utility hit the first disconnect and circuit breaker, any conductors after that point are feeder conductors, not service conductors. Outside feeders are covered by Article 225, not Article 230 (Service conductors).

Another point to note is that generally if the main lug only panel has no more than six breakers in it, it can count as a disconnect; it doesn't need to have a main breaker.

The relevant part of the National Electric Code is Article 225 Part II. From the 2008 version, here are 225.31 and 225.32:

225.31 Disconnecting Means. Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure. 225.32 Location. The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized. [230.6 defines when a conductor is considered outside a building.]

If the pole with the disconnect is right next to the house (some jurisdictions use a standard of within 5 feet), then usually that is interpreted to satisfy these requirements. Otherwise, you definitely need a main disconnect at the house which should be outside or inside "nearest the point of entrance of the conductors". This last phrase is open to interpretation and varying by jurisdiction; some might allow a maximum of 15 feet inside, others more like 15 inches.

I don't know the history of these requirements, but I expect they were in force in 1999.

Many panels can be field configured with a main breaker or as main lugs only, so it is possible that a simple kit will add a main breaker. Failing that, depending on the routing of the feeder from the pole disconnect to the main-lug-only panel inside the house, you might be able to install a stand-alone disconnect before the existing panel, so you don't need to mess with the panel branch circuits at all.

Cheers, Wayne

[iwdplz]

great responses so far. The main disconnect is a breaker..

[zxcvbob]

There are other implications for any 120/240 circuits (most clothes dryers and ranges.) They can't use 3-conductor cables and NEMA 10 connectors. Have to be 4-conductor NEMA 14's.

Everything might be fine. But it's a red flag (or is it yellow?) that is worth having a real electrician take a look.

Bob (I am not an electrician)

[iwdplz]

excellent info, thanks. The home is in the town of Middlebury if that makes any difference. Do all homes in all states in the US comply with NEC, or do the regulations of states and cities ever override anything in the NEC?

[John Grabowski]

*Common sense says that it is better to have the wire from the distant meter to the house protected by a fuse or circuit breaker. It is not an electrical code violation and as other have pointed out home inspectors have limited knowledge of everything. Keep pressuring that guy for a code reference. Better still have your brother's lawyer keep calling him for the reference.

I once was handed a report by a home inspector that said there were loose electrical wires all over the attic and they were a hazard. The new owners asked me to correct the problem. I went up in the attic and the only wires visible and loose were cable TV wires.

[benick]

I'm not an electrician but I've seen HUNDREDS of homes and your set up is pretty common on newer homes...

[Ed Pawlowski]

Some localities require more than the NEC. None will allow less that I'm aware of.

[Wayne Whitney]

How far is it from the disconnect to the house? Every structure is required to have a disconnect (see my previous post). If the pole disconnect is 50 feet away, then I agree an additional disconnect is required on the house. If the pole disconnect is 3 feet away, then it seems fine as is. The exact distance at which an additional disconnect is required is subject to interpretation by the local authority.

Cheers, Wayne

[Seth Goodman]

The NEC is not, "-delete and replace as follows - article

230.70 (A)(1) (1) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure, or inside a building or structure nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors, not to exceed 10 feet of conductor length from the point of entrance."

Note that this amendment *still* allows an outside disconnect. It is possible that Middlebury has their own electrical code over and above the VT code (if that's possible in VT). It's not mentioned on the Middlebury town web site, under "Ordinances".

You might want to call Middlebury city hall, just to confirm.

Like most of the other people have stated in this thread, I think the inspector is wrong, and there's no problem here.

[RBM]

Most use the Nec as their basic electric code, and some make changes to fit their specific demands. If they have supplemental codes, they have to be documented and available for viewing, which is to say, they can't have an inspector make it up as he sees fit. What state is Middlebury in?