GFCI question.

[Ed Pawlowski]

my granddaughter just bought a used 36' travel trailer. In getting it ready she wanted to clean the carpets so used a machine. Plugged into the receptacle at the sink, it went dead. Two kitchen receptacles are now dead.

First thing she did was check and reset circuit breakers. No go. When I got there, first thing I did was look for a GFCI. There is one in the bathroom and it was working. I tripped the test and reset it anyway, still works.

I don't have a wiring diagram but I'm guessing the two in the kitchen are downstream from it. My question, could it have tripped and been damaged for the downstream units but still work properly on its own? Seems to be the only GFCI in there so I plan to replace it unless you guys have a better idea.

[philo]

A GFCI may have several downstream standard outlets that will also be protected, the GFCI in the kitchen should not have been wired to be downstream from the one in the bathroom. (In other words, no GFCI downstream from another GFCI.)

First thing I'd do is confirm there is voltage on the GFCI in the kitchen. If there is voltage there and the wiring all looks good then the kitchen GFCI is bad.

If there is no voltage there, then the breaker or it's associated wiring is bad.

[gfretwell]

How may breakers are there?. If the whole trailer is on 2 or 3, maybe the kitchen is on with the bathroom. These are not subject to NEC or HUD rules so who knows. It is worth a shot. Did you try something in the bathroom receptacle or just see it reset? You could just jumper the bathroom GFCI out and see if you can light a lamp in the kitchen receptacles. (move the "load" wires to the line side) The scary thing is they let them use Enerflex devices in mobile homes and that is a flying Romex splice in the wall. If one of them blew open, good luck. I hope it is just a bad GFCI.

[Ed Pawlowski]

There is no GFCI in the kitchen but I think they are the downstream to the bathroom.

[Marilyn Manson]

I?ve never heard of a GFCI killing the load side but still working itself. If it didn?t trip when the kitchen receptacles went dead, I doubt it?s the reason the kitchen receptacles aren?t working.

Before I?d replace it, I?d get a non-contact voltage tester and check the load side wires for power. I?ll bet they are still live.

Then I?d start looking for the GFCI that serves the kitchen receptacles.

[philo]

Oh. I guess I misread.

Time to start tracing wires. I guess the first to check would be the output side of the GFCI

Next would be to check the breakers themselves and associated wiring

[Ed Pawlowski]

I just reset it. At the time I had nothing with me to test it but will check it anyway.

There is a bunch of breakers starting with 50A main. Some of the markings are not clear on the 15A but the AC is clearly marked. There is also the 12V system too. I replaced the battery for that this morning. The old battery was so hot you could not rest your hand on it.

It has two 30# propane tanks. When I opened one, there was a slight leak at the valve stem so I took that out. The other tank is half full so she can use that up. The tanks are 11 years old so cannot be refilled. I bought one new already and will be replacing the rubber hose from the diverter valve to the tanks. One is missing, the other is quite stiff so I'd feel better with a new one in there. When the half tank is empty it will be replaced.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Checked for a second GFCI and did not find any. Checked outside too. Not sure why they would have a second one since it is only needed for the three spots.

[micky]

This is the battery that starts the engine? But the engine still started?

Regardless, sounds like a partial short. Is the new battery being drained like this one is.

[trader_4]

You say that she plugged in the carpet cleaner and the receptacle went dead. How does she know that? Did she see a light go out or something? Is she sure that it was working before she plugged it in? It tripped with the carpet cleaner off, before she could turn it on? If so, then it sure looks like a GFCI trip and I agree with the others that it seems odd that the downstream could be cut off, but the receptacle itself be working. You would think that it's just hardwired together in the GFCI.

Also, I assume she probably got the carpet cleaner going in another receptacle? That would verify that there isn't a short in it that would be tripping a breaker. Would have been interesting to try the carpet cleaner in another GFCI or even in the bathroom one, see if it trips. If it does, then you know it's highly like that it's either another GFCI or the bathroom one is defective. Like others said, logical place to start is see if there is power on the load side.

[Ralph Mowery]

While not likely, this hapened to me .

I plugged in a vacuum cleaner and it started then stopped. The receptical had lost power. No breaker tripped. Finally found that there was another receptical between the one with no power and the breaker box. One side of the receptical had power and the other side did not. There is a smal piece of metal that jumpers from one screw to the other on each side of the receptical and one of the metal strips had burn into. That stopped half of that receptical and the ones past it from getting any pwer.

[micky]

That's strange. That strip is not meant to be a fuse.

[Marilyn Manson]

re: "There is a smal piece of metal that jumpers from one screw to the other on each side of the receptical and one of the metal strips had burn into."

What does "burn into" mean?

FWIW, the metal tab is there so that you can create one switched receptacle and one always hot receptacle.

[gfretwell]

In two? AKA blown open. The only way I see that happening is if it got bent a few times by someone trying to break it out and gave up, grabbing one that broke easier and it got installed anyway. The other thought is it was defective when it left China. It was already weak and the LRA of that vacuum blew it open. They are listed to carry 20 amps when intact.

[Ralph Mowery]

Yes, it blew open . It should have carried the vacuum cleaner with out any problem. That is why I said it probably is not the cause of the problem.

Yes, those strips of metal that go between the screws are made to be removed so you can have power from two sources feeding them. Often one is switched from a wall switch near a door so you can turn on a light that is plugged into it before entering the room.

[micky]

After 35 years, I realize just now I should check if the other half of an outlet here is unswitched. I had the printer plugged into it so I had to leave it on, and use the switch on the lamp, but it would be easier to use the wall switch.

I put ceiling fixtures in the other two bedrooms so it doesn't matter too much how the receptacle in each of those rooms is wired.

[gfretwell]

There is a somewhat common convention that the "half hots" are upside down (from whatever the installer thinks is right side up) and the switched receptacle is on the bottom. That seems to make the most logical sense if there is any.

[Marilyn Manson]

I've been trying to train SWMBO how to use a receptacle for years. She still hasn't gotten the message.

"Permanently" plugged in devices (lamps, clocks, coffee maker, etc.) go in the bottom receptacle, leaving to upper one directly accessible for random devices like a vacuum cleaner, charger pod, etc.

It's the logical (read: easiest) way to use a receptacle.

[bud--]

With an "old" GFCI (made years ago), if you reverse the line-load the GFCI will operate only on the load, might not reset??. The receptacle will always be hot. A trip separates the line/control/receptacle and the download.

(With a "recent" GFCI the device is shipped tripped. If reversed line-load the GFCI will not reset. When tripped the line/control, receptacle, and download are all separated.)

Looking at the wires at the GFCI with a non-contact voltage tracer (as in another post) would be useful.

Could also look (non-contact) at the hot at the kitchen receptacle - did they back-stab the receptacles? If back-stabed could also be at another receptacle that was wired-through. If back-stabbed the neutral may be open and the hot connected.

I would see if the neutral is connected - get a hot from somewhere else and connect a light bulb from that to the neutral. If the neutral is good (light bulb lights) it is likely not a GFCI (which open line and neutral). If you can get a clamp-on ammeter with everything else off and light above you can find the neutral in the panel with a clamp-on. I used to put a flasher on the light bulb, indication was more obvious. A circuit identifier gizmo can be used instead of the light bulb to trace the neutral.

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks for that info, but I gotta ask: What?s your definition of ?old??

Even 2 years can be considered ?years ago?.