GFCI Troubleshooting

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green
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"Robert Green" wrote in news:hb6flg$6en$ snipped-for-privacy@news.eternal-september.org:

Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five feet from a water source (sink).

The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while a toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI. Regardless, your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical codes.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be minimal.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult as one cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into the initial wiring of the circuits.

Good Luck

Reply to
Screed

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine tripped I removed it.

Reply to
ransley

The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator

The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci protected

Reply to
RBM

It doesn't take much of a ground fault to cause the device to trip. It's not likely that you'll find it, if it only happens every six months. If the gfci device is old, you may want to replace it with a newer model, which should be more reliable

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Reply to
RBM

*Just replace the GFCI receptacle. It the easiest and fastest way. The newer models are less prone to nuisance tripping. If I had to bet I would say the problem is with the refrigerator. Older models had lower standards for ground fault leakage. However you do have your circuits spread out too thin. The code requires two 20 amp circuits for kitchen receptacles and nothing else to be connected to those circuits. You should separate the basement from the kitchen.
Reply to
John Grabowski

"RBM" wrote in news:4ad6ffde$0$22526$ snipped-for-privacy@cv.net:

I'm replying from Canada, our CEC (Canadian Electrical Code) differs in those respects from the NEC I'm Guessing.

The CEC States - "each receptacle installed for a refrigerator shall be supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets....."

We only GFCI receptacles 1.5m or 4.921ft in any direction from sinks as of yet.

We also require a deicated circuit for the microwave.

Reply to
Screed

Suggestion? If you can wire the outlet into which the fridge is plugged from the 'input' side of the GFCI rather than 'through' the GFCI? As others have said, GFCI not recommended for fridge or freezer. (Or in fact many electric motor circuits). BTW while the GFCI are designed to protect say a human from leakage from a faulty appliance to ground, such as leaky electric lawn mower or electric hedge trimmer etc. the name IS something of a misnomer. The GFCI operates when there is an 'unbalance' between neutral and live current. Older appliances or even new ones may have slight leakage, but after all they are grounded and/or may have sufficient unbalance as the motor starts to unbalance the two currents momentarily.

Reply to
terry

Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be GFCI protected.

The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.

The arguments were: "The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6 ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard." "The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of 'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

RBM and John have good advice.

Reply to
bud--

Like others said, pull another branch circuit non-gfci for the fridge.

Reply to
RickH

This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.

Here's my logic:

They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still working, right?

OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that particular point in time.

In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that it will.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

That's probably the way it will end up as this is more or less a temporary wiring setup. We discovered halfway through a recent rewire other, more pressing problems when the basement plywood walls came down. Not an unusual situation, from what I've read here about remodeling. Several expensive mysteries were revealed that stalled the rewiring initiative. But I digress.

I'm no NECspert but I thought anywhere near water meant GFCIs are preferred and that if you used them in drier locations, it was no harm/no foul. I got my near-death lethal, burning skin, couldn't let go shock in my bedroom with a Dr. Scholl's foot bath and massager. I reached for a swing arm, imitation Luxo lamp and began to fry. A GFCI would have prevented that little mishap. Had gravity not intervened, I would have died that day with a foot-torso-heart-arm pathway for the shock that caused smoke to rise from my burning feet. For some odd reason, even though I was completely paralyzed, I still managed to fall out of the chair I was in and that broke my hand's connection to the metal lamp handle. That's when I went a little GFCI crazy and began installing them in all the household circuits as I upgraded from 2 wire to grounded service.

Regardless,

Hmmm. Well, something else was on the same circuit and probably did fire up at the same time as the fridge. We've been having a lot of high winds and "power blinks" and there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to blow out the coils. The lower half of the refrigerator duplex outlet was the nearest free outlet. They could have easily restarted within seconds of each other.

I can certainly isolate the refrigerator on its own circuit and that seems to be a prudent thing to do. This could have happened when no one was at home.

Got one that had disappeared for nearly a year to reappear at the bottom of the seasonal lights box. Will try that out today. Did that, and it says nothing's wrong.

Well, I can assist you a little by describing materials, equipment and techniques used.

o Metal boxes with screw-down clamps screwed into studs where possible - not squirmy plastic that depend on the constant "springiness" of the plastic material over time to hold cables tight,

o 12/2 Romex (why would you ever use 14/2 when wire is cheap and time is not?),

o screwed, not backstabbed connections,

o outlets wrapped with real 3M electrical tape and not Wal*Mart's 10 rolls for dollar crap,

o Leviton receptacles, breakers and GFCI's,

o "InSure" push-in wire connectors instead of wing nuts (referenced here by M. Dufas in an earlier thread) because they are easy to use and inspect (but not find locally!!):

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o Klein made in USA strippers, Triplet tong meter, GFCI tester, the 2008 NEC pocket guide

o Five profusely illustrated home wiring DIY books that have paid for themselves about 10 times over because a picture truly is worth 10,000 words with skills like plumbing and electrical.

o 25 years of watching This Old House. Despite what many people say, there isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one thing better. Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa the least. Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade every three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing down bizarre problems with hot water heating.

I only bring this up because just looking at my work in a photograph would probably tell you about as much as what equipment I use or what questions I ask does: and that's not enough to determine if my work was really any good.

You'd have to pull stuff apart to determine true quality and workmanship. Without close inspection, you couldn't tell whether there were any serious nicks of the cable where it was stripped. You'd have to remove an outlet and pull it apart AND tug on it to make sure a backstabbed outlet's claw hadn't released its grip on the wire or become loose and corroded. Or that I had stripped enough wire to even make a good connection. (Not really a problem with my work because I don't backstab.) You'd at least have to unwrap the electrical tape around the outlet to see if the end bends were made correctly and were set firmly under the screw. You'd at least have to twist the screw with a screwdriver to make sure it was tight. You'd have to tug on all the wires under a wire nut to make sure they weren't making intermittent contact (not a problem with the InSure connectors - they're transparent so you can see if the wire's in right and tight) and so on and so on.

I've been kind of amazed at what I've seen inspectors pass in some of the houses I've lived in because things "looked neat" and wires weren't wrapped in masking tape and hanging from rusty nails.

Any electrical work I do is always reviewed by at least a second pair of eyes before it's ever inspected. That alone caught two or three mistakes that would definitely have caused problems down the line. Around here once an inspector thinks you're sloppy, it takes an awful lot to change his mind. So I do things like making sure the screws on cover plates line up and that the plates are plumb. I am not sure why, but growing up, my best friend's dad was a electrician, and he did it that way, so I do too. Same with wrapping an outlet in electrical tape. Some people say it's old-timer nonsense, but I figure it can't hurt anything and might even help prevent a short.

As far as code interpretation, I'll have to check with my local authority having jurisdiction since his/hers is the only interpretation that matters. (-:>

Thanks. I think the plan is to move the fridge to its own dedicated line that's still on a GFCI, but without any other loads on it. It's near enough to the kitchen sink to be a concern and if it still trips, I will replace it. If it still trips when a new GFCI's in place, I'll have to assume there's an issue in the refrigerator wiring itself and try to determine where the fault is. If that fails, and the refrigerator shows no obvious faults, I'll eliminate the GFCI.

Fifty feet of Romex, another breaker and some fittings will likely be a lot less costly than a freezer full of thawed-out food. I have an alarm on the fridge to tell me when the unit has warmed beyond safe limits, but if no one's in the house, it will just beep patiently while all the food spoils. So far, the GFCI has NEVER tripped when no one was home. That tends to support the "two incompatible devices on the same circuit" theory, I think. The best way to test for that, is as you suggest, isolate the refrigerator from all other appliances and outlets. Easiest, too!

Thanks for your input.

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

All medical tests (glaucoma, cholesterol, cancer, ...) are useless. They don't tell you if you will have a problem tomorrow.

Reply to
bud--

Take the fridge off the gfci. If you're lucky you can just move it down one outlet and cover the remaining outlets.

Reply to
jamesgangnc

"Useless" is your word, not mine, and given the examples you chose, also wrong.

Similar to testing a GFCI, medical tests can certainly tell you if something needs to be done *right now* - swap the known bad GFCI for a hopefully good one, begin a medication regimen or diet change, etc.

In addition, certain medical tests can signal an upcoming problem. For example, higher than normal glaucoma readings might signify a need more frequent testing than a normal reading would. Higher than normal cholesterol numbers might indicate the need for a change in diet or even medication.

While a normal reading will certainly not mean that you will never get sick, statistics show that if you have a normal reading and get tested on a regular basis, problems can be usually be caught before they become life (or sight) threatening.

However, a GFCI test doesn't have a "range". It's either going to pass or fail. Failure tells you something useful...passing means nothing. Failure tells you that you should change it right now=85passing simply means it probably would have worked if it was needed in the past.

That=92s why I used the word conundrum, not useless.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

Don't know where the op is from, or where you're from, so I'm just specifying U.S. code

Reply to
RBM

"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow out the coils if no one was home.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

A GFCI doesn't make sense with refrigeration which I believe is an exception. Purchase an electrical outlet tester (about $15) and/or replace the GFCI.

Reply to
Phisherman

In the US refrigerators do not require their own circuit and can be placed on a GFCI.

As RBM(?) posted all kitchen counter top receptacles are required to be on GFCIs (US). (Also required in some other locations - generally damp related.) And can be used anywhere.

Scary. I never had that close a call.

The configuration is acceptable in the US except the circuit extends to the basement. (It can extend to dining rooms and some other locations.)

Producing an "overload" might trip a circuit breaker but won't trip a GFCI. They only look for a current imbalance.

Older GFCIs were more prone to nuisance trip. I kinda forget - I think several people suggested trying a new GFCI.

If they indicate a problem there is very likely something wrong. If they indicate OK the wiring is probably OK. But they can miss problems. In particular, they can not check the the ground is good - they will indicate good for a high resistance connection. Actually the same is true for a high resistance hot or neutral connection, but you will see the problem if you plug in a light.

I wish they had an electrician as good as the other regulars.

Reply to
bud--

That's interesting and in line with what I thought to be true about electrical requirements for my particular jurisdiction. Even though a dedicated circuit is not required, I can certainly see the wisdom in putting a "mission critical" device like a refrigerator on its own breaker so that no other errant device can take it down.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to ask the local inspector what the county wants in the way of GFCI's and dedicated circuits. He's the one that matters most. I don't think it could hurt things to dedicate a line, but what I really want to know now is whether there's any advantage to protecting the refrigerator with a GFCI. It's close to the sink and it's made at least partly of steel - it seems to be an "at risk" area. A lot I've read about using GFCI's note that the newer units are far less likely to nuisance trip than older models. Some also say that there are some GFCI's designed to trip at a higher-than-normal current imbalance, but the higher the trip level, the more of a shock gets through to pen closing the circuit,

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

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