Michael Dobony wrote: ...
Whether the small engine(s) were or were not designed for ethanol fuels depends mostly on the age of the engine--see the link from B&S posted earlier which confirms that E10 is fine for their current engines (as, of course, will be true for essentially any now given the widespread mandates for ethanol blends it's almost a given).
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I last filled my chain-saw (an old Remington) over 2 years ago with some mixed gas drained from a friend's ultralight airplane. It is 40:1 standard air-cooled engine 2 stroke oil mixed with 100LL aviation gas. The saw started on the second pull when I needed it today. The gas was low in the tank so I filled it out of my plastic fuel can with more of the same gas. This little Remington is a VERY high compression engine - it will pull the ctarter cord right out of your hand if you are not real careful starting it. The cackle from the exhaust lets you know it is a pretty high performance machine. 24" bar on 35cc, IIRC. Might be 38.
Cut 2 trees with it this afternoon..
The ethanol blends CAN muck up the fuel lines, depending what material they are made of. I replace mine with Tygothane. It can also deteriorate diaphragms in carbs.
When my saw is not running on Aviation gas I use Shell Ultra - because it is always ethanol free in Canada and has the octane required for the hot little Remington.
Secret to buying ethanol free premium for small engine use - start the pump and put a gallon or so in your car - then fill your can. This way any regular left in the hose (assuming a mixer pump) goes in the car tank. Shut off the pump and pay for the gas - then switch to regular and put gas in your car. That way YOU get the premium that was left in the hose in YOUR car - not the next guy.
For 4 stroke engines do NOT use standard automotive engine oil as it has no zinc compounds in it any more for extreme pressure/anti-friction. It has been taken out for emission control reasons - if the engine burns any oil with the zinc compounds in it, the catalist is compromized. Apparently it is still allowed in the heavier oils like 20W50, but that doesnt mean the brand you use will have it. The special 4 stroke equipment and bike oils still have it. Use them for best engine life.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote: ...
BS...a small 4-cycle engine has higher lubrication demands than an automotive engine? I don't think so and B&S doesn't either...
"Briggs & Stratton lawnmower oil is formulated...and approved by Briggs & Stratton engineers-Warranty certified and recommended in all Briggs & Stratton manuals-A high quality detergent oil classified SJ/CD by the API"
The API classification is nothing different than that for most modern automotive applications.
I seriously doubt you'll find any ordinary small 4-cycle engine have any special requirements more stringent than the above.
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Air cooled engines run a lot hotter. At least, that's what my instructor said, when I took the small engine course.
Look at the manufacturer's oil spec's in comparison in terms of API ratings...
Convert it to propane.
Air-cooled engines always have hotspots, no matter how well-designed. That's why even Porsche and VW eventually gave up on air-cooled engines.
Briggs is not going to spec anything other than regular oil. It would be a marketing nightmare for them, and a warranty issue. "Don't buy a mower with a B&S engine. You have to use B&S oil, and that stuff is expensive." They know that the original owner is rarely going to put enough hours on the engine to wear it out, and even then it won't be blamed on anything in particular. How many people are going to run a mower 10 years until it just won't run anymore, then realize "If only I had used motorcyle oil I'd get another 5 years out of it." ?
As to wear additives, it's true that the best of them has been eliminated for the sake of emissions, specifically catalytic convertors. That's a great tip on using bike oils. I'm going to check with my Lucas rep and see if their Motorcycle Synthetics will work in my non-catalyst cars. I think racing oils should also still have the anti-wear zinc and other additives.
Yabbut the thread was for small lawnmower engines, not racing or other extreme duty applications. There's little need nor anything to be gained from using anything greatly exceeding the OEM's API recommendations in normal use.
Virtually any quality automotive oil of proper viscosity rating of the last 20-30 years will be more than adequate since the advent of the higher-temperature running auto engines beginning in the 80s for the emission controls. In the 50s thru say 70s the requirements were pretty minimal and some might show some temperature breakdown in air-cooled engines I'll agree but that's pretty much gone by the by...
Again, high performance bike engines, etc., etc., aren't/weren't the subject. Using such won't hurt anything and the small quantities required means it won't really cost a whole lot extra but it generally isn't really going to make any difference ever be able to tell.
As noted upthread, we're running some 30-40 yr-old small engine equipment regularly. For most of their lifetimes (until Farmland Co-op closed their refinery and quit manufacturing it) they ran on an all-purpose API SE/SF/SD multi-grade that included full engine warranty (including the turbochargers) service and a drained oil sample test kit returned at every change for all of the trucks and tractors. After that went away and w/ the arrival of the larger crankcase capacity tractors went to bulk JD multi-grade but not synthetic -- JD did not recommend switching to synthetics on engines formerly not on them. Use it in everything...
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RB wrote: ...
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But the intended point is (which my other response didn't do well) that they _could_ have spec'ed a more stringent API classification but didn't. It's not that there's any shortage of grades from which to choose to meet the needs of the engines they're designing.
That they didn't indicates something... :)
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:>
So I should get my utility gas at the local airport?
Interesting, I have just an 18" bar on my 48cc Shindaiwa. I've cut a couple rocks in half with it (embedded in trees).
My points were two:
Air-cooled engines can have localized hotspots that exceed the temps found in automotive watercooled engines. Speaking only of areas touched by the oil.
Current API specs have all but eliminated the traditional, and most effective wear reducing additives so as not to foul your cat convertor. To get the wear inhibitors back, you have to look at oils made for engines without catalysts - race cars, motorcycles.
"Can", yes. Smaller and less performance driven engines less likely. I'd also wager quite a bit that the engine manufacturers look at temperature distributions quite a bit in the design process.
That doesn't mean that there aren't different than the traditional wear additives currently in those oils. There are some very smart folks doing lubrication design these days w/ far more sophisticated chemical modeling tools, etc., than in those days of yore.
OTOH, is some other selected ad hoc oil any better? Not necessarily.
The primary disagreement I have is the conclusion drawn that OEMs simply more or less randomly select something in making those recommendations and that there is something somehow wrong w/ newer oils simply because they don't necessarily use the older formulations.
Again, specialty applications are something different than the ordinary small 4-cycle.
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It's a 46cc.
Air cooled engines DO have higher lubrication requirements - and the low TBO or lifespan of most small engines definitely affirms that.
About 98% of the older small engines will last a WHOLE LOT longer with oils containing ZDDP. Any engine with flat tappets will have significantly less cam wear with ZDDP. The only reason current auto oil does not have it is because it can affect catalytic converter life. Any SL or previous engine oil is acceptable for small engine use.. Racing oil and Deisel or Multi-Fleet oil is also acceptable.They all have about 12ppm ZDDP, compared to a maximum of 0.08%
Today's roller tapet engines are much less demanding lubrication-wise than flat-tappet engines.
Remember, higher API ratings do NOT translate to better lubrication. They just meen a newer standard.SM oil is significantly inferior to SJ for heavy duty applications, old engines, and "L" Head air cooled engines. Don't know if any of the current crop of OHV small engines has roller cams but I doubt it.
They do. So do most deisel engine oils.
You have not QUITE understood what I'm saying. The 20 and 30 year old oil is PERFECT for lawn mowers etc. The levels of ZDDP (google it if you don't know what I'm talking about) were very high back in the '70s. Today's automotive engine oils have virtually NONE. ZDDP protects sliding parts. Camshafts and camfollowers. Connecting rods on splash lubricated engines. Ditto for main bearings. There is NO pressurized layer of oil between the moving parts in a B&S, Kohler, or Techumseh l-head engine. The ZDDP prevents metal-metal sliding friction from welding the parts together.
You can more than double the life of the average small 4 stroke engine by using the correct oil over using current off-the-shelf automotive oils. If you put a lot of hours on a fleet of small engines (snow removal/lawn service or generator/construction air compressor use) the inconvenience/expense of finding the right oil will save you BIG BUCKS.
You ARE using the right oil in the small engines. JD Multi-Fleet and SD rated oils ARE right for these engines. SM rated oil is NOT. For anyone to recommend otherwise they obviously do not know API oil ratings and/or small engine lub requirements.
There are a lot of very intelligent mechanical engineers convincing the automotive manufacturers to go to the more complex and expensive roller tappet camshafts to make engines last running the de-contented engine oils mandated by the emission control requirements.
But usually. They will be providing oils with lots of ZDDP in them. GENERALLY the small engine manufactur supplied oil is roughly equivalent to multi-fleet or racing oil.
Are you a mechanic? In particular a small engine mechanic? Or a mechanical or lubrication engineer? I'm not an engineer, but I AM a mechanic (among other things) and have worked on a lot of small and air-cooled engines in the last 45 years.
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