That they _can_ and do is one thing, that a buyer should have their own
representation is another. It's a CYA kinda' thing -- most often,
things are fine, but if there's a glitch, it's much harder (and
sometimes impossible) to get redress after the fact...
Title companies have their place, but they're not attorneys and they're
normally not _really_ in a position that your best interest is their
IMO, ymmv, $0.02, etc., etc., ...
Not every state has escrow.
I've only bought one house, but I don't see how one can count on the
title company to represent the buyer's interest, except the one
interest that affects the title company, which is establishing good
I don't see how or why they would concern themselves with cabinets and
refrigerators, which have no effect on whether the house is sold or
The title company sends a lawyer or whatever to protect its own
interests. He usually takes charge because there is no one there with
more training and experience. Even if there is a seller or buyer's
lawyer there, I would guess the title company's lawyer takes charge
because he is comparitively neutral. The buyer doesn't want a neutral
lawyer. He wants one on his side.
That doesn 't necessarily mean -- I don't know -- if he needs to have
his lawyer there. If he can't get the kitchen the way it should be,
he should as someone said, discuss this with a lawyer in advance. I
would think a lawyer near the house. He can fax or email the relevant
papers, adn do it on the phone. This can even be cheaper maybe
conceivably because there is less likely to be time spent
chitchatting, which my mother was wont to do.
The lawyer probably will want to come to the closing, I think, because
it earns him income, and because he will be honestly afraid something
bad will happen if he is not there, that will be harder to undo than
OTOH< I hired a lawyer when I bought my house, and he was terrible,
even though I got him through a recommendation of someone I still
respect. He gave me a flat price, which I failed to ask enough
questions about, and after it was over, and I noticed I had no title
insurance, he told me his price didn't include title insurance and I
didn't need it. Even though it was a property subdivided only 4 years
earlier, and many of the lots were unusual shapes, and mine was one of
the most unusual. In fact the subdivision as a whole had had a title
dispute with the next subdivisioin, and it turned out we or they had
built on the other's property. A deal was worked out where we kept
the property our developer had wrongly built on, and we gave them some
of our vacant land. We're so packed, I'm surprised we could find
vacant land next to their land to give them. OTOH, maybe that's a
reason we're so packed. I have no idea how much land was invovled.
The one thing that was dubious at my settlement was whehter we were
properly apportioning the oil in the oil tank or the electric bill or
something like that. And I noticed this before my lawyer did. I
wonder if I hadn't said anything if he would have noticed it at all.
ON a new house I guess that's not an issue, although maybe the builder
has to pay the electric bill until the house is acctuallly sold, and
maybe that can be 100 dollars or so?
I should have been suspicious when the lawyer had his office in a
lower income part of town. But he had a recommendation and his first
advice on the phone, on an easy but acute topic, sounded good, and was
good if the mortgage agent hadn't been a dirtball.
Shrug. For my last closing, I <asked> the lead contract attorney at work for
a referral, and he said 'don't bother'. Local custom here in MI is
pre-printed boilerplate forms, and that is all the realtors and title
companies are willing to use. No addendums, no nuthin'- just check the right
boxes for the type of sale, fill in all the money and insurance blanks, sign
a couple of checks, and done in 20 minutes. It did go much easier than an
attorney-handled closing down in Louisiana, which took well over an hour,
and six or severn checks for the non-negotiable junk fees. (I think I paid
the pizza delivery fee for the office that day.)
As low on the food chain as my real estate purchases are, I'm not losing
sleep over it. If it was a multi-party deal with weird financing or
anything, I would insist on attorney, but the deals I have personally been a
direct party to, were about as complex as buying a car. 1 seller, 1 buyer,
no open liens, etc.
But having said all that- while IANAL, I have worked with all sorts of
contracts for many, many years, so the concepts and terms are not greek to
me. For someone that has never signed on the dotted line, or at least taken
college-level business law and contract law courses, a consult with an
attorney or paralegal, or maybe one of those community college courses on
'how to buy a house', may be time and money well spent.
Which is what I don't understand. Why is a realtor even involved?
Who hired the builder? Who is his contract with? You? Then you
should be dealing with him. Her? Then he is building the house *for*
her and you are buying it *from* her. Is he a mass builder and she is
handling the purchase for you? Then neither of you have any input to
If the OP walked into builder models. Once I did ( 10 days to buy a
house across country ) and had an agent register me. The builder sales
office and Salesperson handled any concerns I had. Made any addition I
asked for, etc.
Still, the salesperson was not a realtor, but my agent here dealt with
the builder sales office d8
The OP agent/broker relationship in this mess; warns me....
..through the use of electrical or duct tape, achieve the configuration in the
You may "have" to go through the realtor, but in my experience, blanketing
everyone responsible helps cover-ups. Send a written letter to your realtor,
but copy it to everybody you can find, her boss, the builder, the head of
the construction company, the cabinet supplier, hunt down names and
broadcast your problem to everyone. It usually gets some results, especially
in getting the person who should do their job to actually do it. More
results than the Usenet.
Okay, so you have a disclosed dual agency. That's legal here, as long
as it is disclosed. But since the broker/boss is the one with the
contract, the broker/boss the the dual agent.
As an agent, your sales agent cannot tell you that you cannot contact
the seller. I mean, what's she going to do, cancel the sale? So look
them up in the phone book and call. In all likelyhood, they will fix
If they don't, check your specs. If the cabinet isn't to specs, call
you agent and tell him/her to fix it and to stop dicking around. If
they don't, then tell them to refund your deposit and cancel the
sale. That will make them gulp hard and fix it. They know that they
can get screwed if you delay the closing for a while, so they want it
to go quickly. This isn't anything that is too big, so it'll get
fixed. The agent will, of course, tell you that you can't do that,
yadda, yadda, yadda and is sort of correct. But at that point you
acknowlege that, tell the agent that he/she is not propertly
representing you and fire the agent. They will want a fee but you
tell them that if they give you any sh*t that you'll take them to the
licensing board and you can agrue it there as you claim imcompetance,
etc. The worst that can happen is that they sue you, but that too is
a sticky issue in the world of agency -- especially when you are
stating that they are not adequately representing you.
I don't know about your state, but no agent/broker want to go to court
or to a licencing body when dual agency is involved. NYS has
mandatory disclosures -- all they have to do is miss one thing and
they are in trouble.
You also need to breath deep and realize that this isn't emotional.
It's just a real estate transaction. If it doesn't go the way you
want, then you walk. It migh cost you something but it's better to
get what you want. But again, I'd just call the builder.
That's true, and he's moving agalin anyhow in what was it, 5 or 10
years. So no matter how bad it is, it's not forever.
Still, it's good to practice doing this right to be better able to
wage war, or peace as the case may be, the next time he buys a house.
With all the problems and confusion that there is here, among people
who have experience in these matters, many of whom have college
degrees and parents who owned their own homes etc. etc., just imagine
what it is like for someone who never had any legal or financial
experience, who has a job that pays well enough to buy a house, but
who's the first in his family to own his own home, etc. He must
really feel chewed up and spit out after one of these experiences.
Many not-for-profits throughout the country have homebuyer courses and
counseling to assist with just that. They are usually a simple google
search or going to hud.gov and looking for certified counselors.
I hope you are able to work it out with the builder.
The only advice I have for you is to get a good real estate
lawyer to review every document you've signed or piece of
paper you've been given.
He/she will be able to tell you exactly where you stand and all the
remedies that are available to you. No one here can do that.
From the photo you put up on the net, I would have concerns about
the builder's competency: there are tools sitting on a finished
surface, an unprotected kitchen countertop -- both the tools and the
lack of protection are unprofessional and sloppy. Similarly I note
the cabinets are going in after the floor tile has been set == again,
work is being performed over a finished surface.
Careful, counter depth fridges are sometimes WIDER than standard ones (our
SubZero was) needing not only a wider space to fit but also a wider DOOR
SWING. Make sure you dont trade one problem for another. Measure the actual
fridge you re considering...dont go by numbers on some diagram
It IS unacceptable.
Are the countertops finished yet? Do you have room to move the cabinet
out by 12". Maybe you can get a 12" spacer panel from the cabinet
manufacturer (they all make them) so you can move the cabinet 12" away
from the fridge.
Even if the countrer top is finished, he's got proof positve that the
builder did something wrong if he can't put a standard frigde there
and still use the drawer and the door.
If the builder is going to claim that he OKAYed this, let him show
that he was told and he SIGNED off on it.
OP, your testimony is evidence. It's not the only possible evidence
but why would you ever agree to this in advance, when it easily could
ave been done differently, when now you will have to spend MORE money
to get a SMALLER refridgerator. No one would have agreed to that.
Just make sure you don't sign something that says you accept the house
If you can't resolve this before move in time, move in and don't sign
the as is. If he refuses to let you move in, say you're going to sue
him for all your hotel bills, your extra moving and storage expenses,
as you store all your furniture in a warehouse, and have to load and
unload it from the truck a secodn time, plus any damages to your
possession on the second load and unload.
You've got an extensive paper record that the house was built for you
and you are relying on that. He can't sell it to someone else now if
the only thing under dispute is the placement of the cabninets or the
price of a fridge.
I am not a lawyer.
I also feel your pain. We just moved into a mobile home from a house
and did not realize that the fridge would not fit. I ended up cutting
a wall in half in order to make it fit. Sometimes all you need is a
On Jun 16, 10:14 pm, email@example.com wrote:
I'd say it's unacceptable and you have a very legitimate beef with the
builder. I would contact him immediately. It's not rocket science
to lay out a kitchen without a major malfunction like this. If they
are this stupid, I'd be very concerned about what else they may have
screwed up that you don't know about. I'd make a trip over there and
do a careful inspection to see what else may be wrong.
And I don't think having to use a refrigerator with less depth and
less room is the answer. And who is this real estate agent working
for? If you hired her as a buyer's agent and she told you this is
OK, I'd ask her what kind of an idiot does she take you for?. If
she's the agent for the builder, then it makes more sense, but it's
still amazingly stupid. You would think she would just say, OK, I
see your point and I'll take it up with the builder. In any case, I'd
do anything I could to minimize having her involved in this or
Just make them give you an 8" narrower cabinet (I'm sure they special order
them) and an 8" filler piece. You'll lose 8" of cabinet/drawer space, but
not the whole cabinet. Or they could custom make a cabinet equally wide,
but with a narrower door. This wouldn't deal with the drawer width the the
cabinet space would be the same.
< firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in message
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