Asking a quick question to doublecheck clutch engagement in pedal travel

[Clare Snyder]

Yes, it can be called end blay

[Clare Snyder]

Listen idiot - where did I say I'd only installa disk???????? I said it is the wear on the disk - NOT the pressure plate or springs, that causes the release point of the clutch th "climb" - requiring the replacement of the clutch. Matched clutch sts are aboiut the only way the average customer will be able to buy the clutch parts required. Sure, you can go to a speed shop and buy all the separate bits if you are bvuilding a custom clutch - but let's be real - OK Iggy???

You REALLY want me on your case???????

If not, READ and UNDERSTAND what uis being said before spouting off and looking TOTALLY stupid.

Man is born ignorant. Remaining ignorant is a conscious choice.

[Clare Snyder]

Correct. And before cable actuated clutches were "full mechanical" linkages with push rods and bell-vcranks and pivots and all manner of JiunJiu that needed regular lubrication and ajustment to keep the system from falling apart.

Keep searching and reading, and you will learn. Just don't be like Iggy.

[Clare Snyder]

The fluid can "bypass" the pressure seal in the MASTER cyl, causing poor actuation with no fluid loss with some master cyl designs.

The more common problem is air leaking in past the seal when the piston is retracting, so air gets into the system, In many systems the air can find it's way back up through the master cyl when the pedalis pumped, temporarily restoring clutch action. Other times, pumping the pedal simply compresses the air into a small enough bubble that the bedal becomes significantly firmer - untill the pedal is released and the pressure is drained off through the compensator port in the master.

Put the car into high gear when moving at low speed and step on the gas. If the clutch is totally worn out it will slip - the engine willspeed up without speeding up the car. If this happens get it fixed NOW. If it is not slipping, just take it easy on the clutch and it MAY go a long time yet.

[Clare Snyder]

And I NEVER said otherwize, Iggy. Don't put words in my mouth.

I did this professionally for half my life, including teaching the trade at both secondary and post-secondary (trade) level.

On a front wheel drive car, DEFINITELY not a job for a novice DIY.

[Clare Snyder]

Good experience - good way to do it - but won't solve the problem if he has a problem.

[harry newton]

He who is Dean Hoffman said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 07:41:13 -0600:

It's great advice where disconnecting the pedal from the pushrod isn't hard at all, but, upside down with only one elbow getting in there and not a lot of light either, is harder than you might think.

I have to say it took me about as long to connect that pushrod as it took to bench bleed the clutch release cylinder, which was at least an hour each.

Bench bleeding sounds so simple, but the hose falls off, the fluid leaks all over, the jar tips over, etc.. Once you get the technique down, you can bleed in a few minutes but it takes you an hour to get the technique right, and you have to make your own plugs, which took me another hour because the first two types leaked under pressure.

In perfect hindsight, I would recommend two things for bench bleeding that I didn't have on hand.

1. A VERY SOFT clear hose on the end (last half inch), connected to a VERY HARD clear hose in the middle (next five inches). Mine was too hard on the end to seal against the bleed screw and too soft and slippery on where my hand held it down to allow me to put force on it to make it seal.
2. Extra bleed screws (three would be perfect because the clutch release cylinder needs two and the clutch master cylinder needs two but you already have one).

Have any of you bench bled these things? It's all technique ... which if you have wrong ... it's just a mess. (ask me how I know this)

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:46:47 -0500:

I looked up what parts are needed to buy as a kit which seem to be the clutch disk (which is sold by foot pounds) and the pressure plate, which is the main part of the kit.

The other parts of the kit seem to be two bearings (pilot & release) and a tool for putting the clutch in straight.

For tools, I can borrow the special jack and I already have assorted circle-clip pliers and bearing pullers (where you always need a few plier-like tools like that because of fit issues) and it looks like I also need to pick up some 1/2-inch socket extension bars a few feet long for the top transmission bolts.

Then I'm lucky because this is not a front wheel drive vehicle.

Google says the step are to jack the car, support the transmission, disconnect anything hanging off it, unbolt it from the engine, check the flywheel, pull the pressure plate, pull the clutch, pilot bearing, release bearing, and then replace with new parts.

The only thing that is confusing to me is that one reference I found said that you must add a "spacer" if you machine the flywheel, but I don't see any parts called spacers.

Do you have more information what a flywheel spacer is? How would you know if it's needed or how thick it should be if it is?

[harry newton]

He who is harry newton said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 05:48:58 +0000 (UTC):

Yet this says that Toyota hydraulic clutches are adjustable.

So it's confusing to me.

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:36:40 -0500:

Along the lines of bleeding out air, it took me an hour, and maybe even two hours to finally get the technique down for bench bleeding.

The first thing I realized I needed were three spare bleeder screws, where I tried to make my own stops out of cork, but they were a mess, so I went to wood, but it would have been best to have a set of spare bleeder screws!

Another mistake I made which cost me time was that the master cylinder can't easily be bench bled with the open-top technique because it squirts all over the place when you push the pushrod hard to bleed out the air.

After about 10 or 15 minutes of that hassle, I opted to take the clutch slave release cylinder bleed screw (which was the only one I had) to plug up the hole (the wooden dowels were leaking too much) and then I just looped a cut length of hose from that ancillary bleed screw back into the reservoir.

That was the only technique that worked, so if you know of a better way to bench bleed a clutch master cylinder, please let me know because the videos make is look a lot easier and a far less slippery mess than it was for me.

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:47:45 -0500:

One problem I did wrong, I just realized from looking at my pictures is that I put the paper gasket back on wrong. What does that gasket do, and would putting it on wrong cause a problem?

Here is a picture of the gasket in the original position:

That paper gasket separates the clutch master cylinder from the firewall:

The clutch master cylinder rebuilt kit didn't come with one so I was forced to re-use the old one (which was torn a bit on one side):

I didn't take a picture of how I put it back but I put it back UNDER the rubber boot and not OVER the rubber boot which I see now in the pictures is how it should have been.

What does that paper gasket do and will the fact I put it on under the rubber boot instead of over the rubber boot cause a problem?

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:26:20 -0500:

I'm trying not to be ignorant so I would like to ask you a question about the clutch slave cylinder bench bleeding process.

I admit I made an entire sloppy messy slippery mess of the whole process, which easily took me an hour until I got a technique down right that worked in a few minutes.

My first big mistake was in not knowing I needed extra bleed screws so I had to make my own, none of which worked very well.

My second mistake was in not being able to fill the clutch slave release cylinder with fluid because you it doesn't have a nice reservoir like the clutch master cylinder has:

My third mistake was that you have to somehow pre-fill the hose with fluid without losing that fluid when you connect it because the clutch slave cylinder just doesn't hold a lot of fluid.

Not pictured is the 15-minute washing of my eyes (clutch fluid burns, and do not ask me how I know that) because I didn't wear goggles and the first press of the clutch slave cylinder with a phillips screwdriver squirts far more powerfully than you might think it does!

So I took another fifteen minutes to fashion a catch jar out of a Costco gummibears vitamin jar where the hose was too short (because I had cut it to make the clutch master cylinder loop prior):

Where finally I got the job done by hooking the funnel on the end of the hose and just holding that up in the air with one hand and then pushing in the clutch slave cylinder piston with a phillips screwdriver (not pictured because I was using both hands at the time).

All that effort was wasted, because it's not easy getting the clutch slave cylinder back on the car without losing all that fluid anyway, so, in the end, it was a total waste of time to bench bleed the clutch slave cylinder because my technique was just all wrong.

So I have to ask for your advice on technique.

Given that bench bleeding the clutch master cylinder is a piece of cake compared to bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder, and given that reinstalling the clutch master cylinder is also a piece of cake compared to the clutch slave cylinder, and given that the clutch master cylinder reservoir handles a lot of drips but not the clutch slave cylinder.......

Would you ever recommend bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder?

[Clare Snyder]

Noit critical- it is to seal the joint between the M/C and firewall to keep dirt and water out of the cabin.

[Clare Snyder]

Bench bleeding a BRAKE master is important. Bench bleeding a clutch master is generally just a waste of time - and the slabe usually a total waste. With no "residual pressure" valve, MOST hydraulic clutches will almost totally "gravity bleed". Won't work if the slave is higher than the master - or at least the reservoir.

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:55:56 -0500:

Whew! If it's just to keep dirt and water out of the cabin, I'm not worried.

I know they don't put stuff there for nothing, so, it had to do something.

I guess I should keep spare "gasket material" on hand for such things. This paper is pretty thin.

Do you keep gasket material on hand? Do you just get it at the parts stores ahead of time?

[harry newton]

He who is Clare Snyder said on Sun, 12 Nov 2017 23:05:57 -0500:

Thanks for that advice.

It was very simple to bench bleed the clutch master cylinder, where all I did (after a few failed methods) was borrow the bleeder valve from the slave and use that to loop a hose back into the reservoir like this.

The only minor problem is that you need that bleed valve for the clutch slave cylinder, so you still have to plug the hole somehow to store it for the time that you're working on the clutch slave cylinder and before you put it back in the car.

Bench bleeding the clutch slave cylinder was, in effect, a waste of time because it was very hard by way of comparison and I lost it all when putting the clutch slave cylinder back on the vehicle anyway.

Luckily, as you said, bleeding the whole thing once I bolted it together wasn't at all hard, so, in the future, I'd just skip the bench bleeding altogether I think.

[Tekkie®]

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

• oooh maybe 150 and gaining

[Tekkie®]

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...

Maybe Zaggy adjusted the short bus clutch...

[harry newton]

He who is Tekkie+AK4- said on Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:13:08 -0500:

The original problem (spongy feel) is solved but that just highlighed the new problem, which is the engagement being very late in the cycle of the non-adjustable clutch, merely means that, eventually, it won't engage, I guess.

Given that, I'll be looking at clutch kits to buy (clutch disc, pressure plate, pilot & throwout bearings, & aligner tool), where my first searches seem to pull up a heck of a lot of brand discussion and pound discussion.

I guess my first question is about foot pounds.

The stock clutch is an Aisin brand 900 foot pounds clutch which the aftermarket seems to frown upon (although they say get OEM parts a lot too).

The Marlin Crawler clutch is 1200 foot pounds, where I'm not sure what that means in terms of better or worse.

Other brands are Duralast, Luk, Exedy, & XTR at prices for the entire kit of from $50 to $300 for the same parts, from Amazon, Ebay, Autozone, Marlin Crawler, etc.

Any advice where to aim, mainly at the foot pounds first, since that's a spec?

[Clare Snyder]

I always have SOME around, and in a pinch it's as close as an empty cerial box. Soak with gasket shellac and it's golden