Adding second 4-way switch...

[dpb]

OK, carrying on from the previous on extending circuits; have pulled to the new junction box location--wasn't bad; actually less trouble than I had expected and had ample cable length on the shortest without scrimping inside the junction box.

OK, then I had another bright idea -- the dining room is the one with the four entrance/exit points but only three switches--while not going to even attempt to get the fourth location, it seemed like a nice amenity to add a second on the east entrance at the dining room wall itself instead of all the way to the exterior door.

The power is fed to the 3-way switch that was at that location (exterior door/wall) with three wire cable running whither I cannot discern precisely. Opening the boxes, the 4-way is on N door, the other 3-way on the W. I made the hope that the 3-way cable went next to the 4-way so put the two travelers between the existing 3-way and a new 4-way and connected the 3-way cable travelers to the other side of the 4-way...

Unfortunately, that apparently is not the actual path as the new 4-way now acts as straight on-off: in one position all other locations work as normal; in other position none work.

I've got some other support work to keep the construction crews moving I've got to go do so haven't been able to scratch head over this -- anybody here got time to ponder this out and see if can deduce how must be wired and if I can manage to make this work without having to tear into interior walls?

If I can't make this work, I'll just live with the location either being where it was, or, perhaps even better thought, can remove the dining room control from the exterior door location entirely and reduce the number there...that may be even better overall solution since there will be control of the entryway at that same new location so won't have to backtrack to turn it off on coming home as did which is why the DR switch needed to be clear out on the exterior door...otherwise you turned yourself back into a dark house or had to walk back the door to turn that one off because it was only location for it.

--

[gfretwell]

If the travelers all go through the J box you can add as many 4 ways as you like. Essentially they just reverse the travelers. (2 wires in

2 out). Just be sure this is really a 4 way and not a DPST. There are pictures on the web if you are not sure how it gets wired.

[trader_4]

I'd start by separating the wires at the location in question and then buzzing them out one at a time to determine what runs from one box to another, mark them.

[dpb]

...

...

Well, it's brand new out of the box just brought home last night, but I suppose it's possible could have been swapped by somebody. Not likely, methinks, but I'll double-check--admit that thought had not crossed my mind altho that's the way it acts.

I've done enough previously that I'm aware of that for the normal configuration -- I know there are some "West Coast" ways that are no longer allowable by Code but the ones I recall even if I couldn't reproduce them w/o head-scratching to remember exact configuration were being fed at the load instead of the first 3-way.

Since the one 3-way I have access to in the new construction is definitely the feed, I was "just hoping" the two travelers from it did just go straight to the existing 4-way; if that were the case I put the new in for trial according to the conventional wiring a la that shown at (rummag around for link...ah! there's a nice legible one)

. I guess the next step is as trader says, ring it out to find how Dad actually did it, or, I'm liking the idea of just moving this existing location and not having it on the outside door location at all more and more as I think about it. Reduces count there besides. I'll have to see what SWMBO thinks about that idea.

Am somewhat curious how this is done, though, it doesn't come to me otomh how else could be...

[gfretwell]

There are essentially 2 ways to run a 3 way. One is where you are taking the neutral along with you and the switches are basically in a straight line. These days the code is pretty much forcing that method since you need a neutral at all switch locations (since 11 or 14 I think). The other method is a switch loop where the neutral stops at the 1st 3 way and you run the 3 ungrounded conductors in a switch loop. In that case all 3 wires in the cable will connect yo the 3 terminals on the switch and the white should be reidentified some other color, connected to the common terminal. That is a down and back method where the reidentified white connects to the hot in the first box. You always reidentify the white to a hot conductor in a switch loop.

There may be slight variations on this theme but that is the 2 basic methods and it is identified by all 3 wires in the cable on the switch at one switch location (the loop) or 2 neutrals tied together (the straight run) I have some better pictures somewhere but I don't see them right now I don't think they are on my web site

[dpb]

The mystery is solved -- the 4-way contacts are top/bottom not side-side so the way I had it it was exactly a DPST. If I pay attention to the markings (colors almost indistinguishable, couldn't really tell which were bright/not bright but it is fairly dark out there w/o lights on) more closely, then everything works as expected.

DOH! Sorry for the confusion; should have looked more carefully before...

[gfretwell]

Good deal, Any resolution that doesn't involve firemen and a water damage recovery company is a success

[dpb]

<Chuckles> Like any landing can walk away from?

This different switch than have used before and the configuration is opposite what was used to is my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

[Dean Hoffman]

You've probably thought of some sort of motion sensors and time delays off instead of all the switches.

[dpb]

Have thought of but still have to get the power there, anyways, so don't see the real benefit for the application. In earlier thread on extending circuits had sidebar discussion re: same and my general distaste for automated stuff.

Am thinking about one for the front step/porch, however, as realized the extension of the porch roof blocks quite a lot of the yard light from reaching the steps themselves and there's not a feasible way to get the wiring from existing location to add another fixture where it would be beneficial for the purpose. So, may use one of the motion sensors on that fixture so that if don't turn it on before leaving it will provide some direct light on steps coming home. Dad ran wiring for existing outside light to the garage so it's possible to turn it on when coming home and before the added porch it was ample to see the steps...we've adding an extra 8-ft covered porch the roof of which will now be in the way between...

But, just for the interior lights, no...

[Rod Speed]

No you don’t with the Hue motion sensors and kinetic switches.

No need to get power there so you can put the switches and motion sensors anywhere and move them around effortlessly as you change your mind about the detail.

More fool you.

More fool you, again.

[dpb]

<ploink>

[gfretwell]

Motion sensors are good inside and out but I don't use them for the primary lighting, just "walking around" light. You can go anywhere in the house or outside and have the light follow you here. It is not work light, just low level light that is enough to walk around maybe get a drink of water or pee. The kitchen was the first, then bathrooms, halls and the great room.

[SamOscar]

Like anyone actually cares what fools like you do or do not read.

[Rod Speed]

I use them everywhere now and don’t have any manual switches at all anymore. Much more convenient.

I use them for work light, particularly with the kitchen, where I do the beer brewing and for seeing what is in the pantry shelving etc and the room I store the beer in.