Adding extra ground/neutral buss bar in electrical panel or add sub-panel?

most home buyers inspection says must pass inspection, so anything like a old main panel that lacked enough slots for the number of needed breakers kills the deal.... plus W is out of that business..

When I was young, just out of high school I serviced machines at the Westinghouse breaker plant in vanport, beaver pa. It was a fasinating and busy place. They offered me a job, with a raise no interview needed.

I didnt know why but passed on the job.

A short time later their business collapsed, last time I was there everyone with less than 20 years were let go.

Today that plant carries a different name but still builds some things. The parking lot is mostly empty, and over half the plant was leveled. I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors where I used to service machines:(

re: I drove by and could see the outlines on the concrete floors where I used to service machines :(

I used to work at large plant that has slowly been reduced to just a few buildings. As they tore down unused buildings, they would crush the brick and use it as landscaping material around remaining buildings and along roadways.

We would drive through the plant and try to guess what building a given pile of landscaping material used to be based on the color of the chunks.

*Several years ago I got a call from someone who wanted a service upgrade. I went and looked at the job and figured to upgrade to 200 amp. The customer got mad at me and said he didn't need or want a 200 amp service. He insisted on upgrading to 150 amp only. I explained to him that there really wasn't much price difference, but he was adamant about only getting a 150 amp service upgrade.

Some folks are just ignorant, and nothing you say is going to enlighten them. You should have charged him more for the 150.

*I haven't compared lately, but I think a 200 amp loadcenter combo package with branch breakers included at Home Depot is cheaper than a 150 at the supply house.

Aw come on, you know a 200a will use more power ;-)

I repair office machines mostly in schools for a living, its my own business.

One day I found a machine missing its ground pin. The machine was under maintence so the new plug was FREE. The principal came in and I mentioned I would replace the plug, since the lack of ground was a safety issue......

The principal argued with me she ONLY wanted the gound pin replaced in the molded plug. There was no way to do THAT!

So when she left I cut off the plug, and installed a new one. And called my contact and told him about her wanting me to replace just the pin:(

As far as I know she never caught what I did.

It's certainly cheaper than at my supply houses

That's too funny. I can't tell you how many people would ask me that, after doing a service upgrade. Then there was this elderly lady that believed electricity would leak out of the socket if you removed the bulb.

That would have to be really something, a panel with not enough slots for all the breakers. Where do you put the extra ones, hanging on the wall? You're creating a strawman that doesn't exist. If you have a main panel, it contains it's breakers and the sub panel contains it's breakers. Neither lacks enough slots and the arrangement is code compliant. That is what Mike is planning on doing, right?

You're assuming that most or all home inspectors are going to fail a properly done sub-panel and I believe that just isn't so. For one thing, they sure would be wasting a lot of time answering questions on those inspections when the seller produces a permit showing it was inspected and approved by the AHJ. Then what do they say? They have the home buyer calling them, the home seller calling them..... Plus, most home inspectors ain't very smart. I would think they would want to avoid any such controversy by sticking to what is code compliant and working and what is not.

I said earlier that if it's true that no compatible breakers are available for that panel, then I would replace it instead of doing a sub-panel. But the OP has not said if that is in fact, the case.

And again, I'm not saying Mike shouldn't price out doing the service upgrade, main panel replacement, as opposed to just adding a sub-panel. But I also don't buy the horror story that you can't sell a house because it has a sub-panel and the home inspector is going to flag it as an item needing repair. Google "subpanel home inspection" and you'll get lots of hits of discussions involving home inspectors. I didn't do a close look in detail, but just looking at the overall results, every discussion is about how to inspect them, how they should be correctly installed, improper bonding, etc. Not one says if you find a sub-panel, flag it as an item that is unacceptable.

In this case the need for a sub panel shows the panel isnt big enough.......

What anyone does has ZERO effect on me:)

Home inspectors have become very fussy, they can get sued for missing anything.....

so everything can get flagged.....

Personally I think its better to avoid home inspection issues than create them, but maybe thats just me

th 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even aft er doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mount ing holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The o ther mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 2

00 amp, but I don't think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and ga s stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know wh y they put in 150A instead of 200A.

You can drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus.

The question this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normal ly there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. You said you have 30 breakers in it, a re they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are desi gned to acccept more than one hot.

If you exceeded the circuits allowed in the box or connectd multiple hots t o breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on ins pection.

Anyone can get sued for anything by anyone that feels like going down to the court house. However, home inspector contracts are well written, with plenty of protection and outs for them. It would have to one hell of an obvious mistake to prevail.

We agree on that, in general. I said Mike should evaluate doing a panel replacement, service upgrade as well as adding the sub-panel. I hope he gets back to us with his results and decision. What I don't agree with is that adding a sub-panel is going to result in it being flagged by a home inspector. Not if it's done right. Did you google and see all the home inspectors discussing the details of inspecting them? I didn't see any saying, don't bother, just flag a sub-panel as unacceptable.

8 AM UTC-4, Mikepier wrote: >> > I am re-wiring a friends basement and he h as a Westinghouse 150A panel with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on th e ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new c ircuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My ques tion is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up wi th the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new o ne. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel , and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now , but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for anothe r reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought abou t changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don' t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact t he outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A. > You c an drill a hole and use a self tapping screw to add your new bus. Self tapp ing screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfre twell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. > > The que stion this raises is if that panel is rated for 30 circuits. Normally there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits. I don't think that is necessarily true. You don 't need a lot of spaces for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't t hink all panels have enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to add are readily available. > You said you have 30 breakers in it, are they all full height? Or are some of them half height? Did you c onnect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot. > > If you exceeded the circuits al lowed in the box Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits . You would have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rej ection feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting. > or connectd multiple hots to breakers that only allow one hot those will come back to haunt you on inspection.

Ok, install with a self tapping screw, remove the self tapping screw and pu t in a regular threaded screw.

with 30 breakers. I ran out of terminals on the ground/neutral bars, even after doubling up on some ground wires of new circuits I ran. So I purchased a grounding buss bar from Home Depot. My question is that the existing mounting holes on this buss bar do not line up with the pre-drilled holes in the panel, so I need to make at least one new one. Since the panel is directly behind plywood, is it possible to just use a large self-tapping screw and screw through the bussbar, through the panel, and through the pywood? The other mounting hole I would use the threaded screw. Also I assume I need to use at least a #6 wire to link the new buss bar with the existing buss bar. That would take car of the basement for now, but looking down the road if other circuits needed to be added for another reno, is it possible to add a sub-panel to the main panel? I thought about changing out the panel to a 200 amp, but I don' t think it is necessary, this is a house that uses and gas stove/dryer/water heater. Plus the fact the outside meter pan would need to be changed. The existing panel is maybe 20-25 years old, I don't know why they put in 150A instead of 200A.

Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the box (as gfretwell wrote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus.

there will be enough ground/neutral connections in the panel as long as you are within it's rated circuits.

I don't think that is necessarily true. You don't need a lot of spaces for ground wires if you wire with EMT and I don't think all panels have enough neutral bar spaces to wire everything in romex. Ground bars to add are readily available.

of them half height? Did you connect more than one hot wire to each breaker? Only some breaker models are designed to acccept more than one hot.

Generally, you can't exceed the allowed number of circuits. You would have to install tandem breakers to do that, and they have a rejection feature that only allows them to be installed in locations indicated on the panel label. It is a UL Class CTL feature - circuit limiting.

back to haunt you on inspection.

You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick enough. This is what 250.8 says about it

(5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut (6) Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure

This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw.

The HEAVY COPPER line between the original bar and the added one takes care of electrical conductivity:)

My biggest problem adding a bar was getting the original ones screws loose. They must of been tightened at the factory and didnt want to budge:(

Some I jared loose:( One ripped the screw slot off trying to get it loose. After that I tried heating some.

The middle group inspector congraulated me on my good job.....

The home inspector flagged the panel because the original inspection stickers signature had faded:( The sticker was fine the signature cold be seen but not read......

Most parts of a panel are probably not thick enough for 2 threads.

If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threads (2 screws) adequate for a ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous.

Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.)

1:04 -0600, bud-- > wrote: > >> Self tapping screws can not be used as the electrical connection to the >> box (as gfretwell w rote). A wire would have to be added to the neutral bus. > > You can use a thread forming machine screw if the metal is thick > enough. > This is what 250.8 says about it > > (5) Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not l ess than two > threads or are secured with a nut > (6) Thread-forming machi ne screws that engage not less than two > threads in the enclosure > > This excludes a course thread sheet metal screw. Most parts of a panel are prob ably not thick enough for 2 threads. If you have a 100A feeder, are 4 threa ds (2 screws) adequate for a ground fault (paint blocks direct contact). It makes me nervous. Presumably the ground bar that is added is "listed". Not all of them are. Some are UL "recognized" components that are not the same as listed. (Or the bar can be accepted by the inspector.) 10-32 self-tapping machine screw will have two threads in 1/16" sheet metal . The boxes I've seen recently all have machine screws holding the ground bars on. I don't see the difference.