Replacing FP electrical panel in Condo (with pics)

I am helping my brother in law renovate his condo. He has an old FP electric panel that I want to replace due to the problems they are known to have. There is a 50A main in the meter room, and the feed to the existing panel is #6 wire. The panel supports 2- 220V a/c's (on top of pic), 2- 20A breakers, 2-15A breakers, and one open slot for a spare.

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Can someone tell me what panel I would need or maybe point me to a link of a panel that would work for this application? Maybe made by Murray, Cutler hammer, or GE?

By the way, one of the A/C's I am converting to 110V because one of the A/C units is actually 110V and its like new, but the previous owner never converted the plug to 110V, he just used an extension cord to an adjacent outlet.

Reply to
Mikepier
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Someone (dpb?) wrote years ago that there were Eaton-Cutler Hammer guts that would fit in an existing FPE box. I don't know if they still exist or anything about them.

Reply to
bud--

Yeah, I read about those, but I figure the walls are wide open now, so why not just replace evreything new.

Reply to
Mikepier

  • Unless you can relocate the cables or reframe the studs, you're gonna have a problem. That panel was made before minimum wire bending requirements were enacted, so any 8 circuit flush panel you'd get today will be wider. Bottom line, you need an 8 circuit "flush" mount panel. I think Square D, "QO" would be physically the smallest. After changing the one 240 volt circuit to 120 volt, you will need 1 double pole breaker and 7 single pole breakers, which will fill the panel, if you get full sized breakers. If you have need of future circuits you can use duplex breakers or get a larger panel
Reply to
RBM

*The panels that I usually see now can be top or bottom feed so you should have plenty of slack for your hot wires. Your neutral my be short, but you can splice onto that. Many panels are made to fit between two studs with 16" centers. It looks as though your spacing is less. My first thought is to notch the existing studs, but that may not be possible for you. I know years ago some manufacturers made narrow panels that had extra space at the top and bottom. Here is a link to Square D's catalog. Page 7 and 8 lists the load centers and page 19 has the dimensions. It looks as though they have a 100 amp 8/16 panel that's narrow (QO816L100F or S). They show a picture of the inside on page 7. You would probably have to go to a supply house that is a Square D distributor to get one. Be sure to get a separate ground bar.

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Reply to
John Grabowski

Thanks for the Square D link. Yeah, that panel would work. But I should mention the stud to the left can be moved/relocated and one of the studs is just a filler, so I can go a little wider. I just came back from HD, and they had Siemans and Eaton CH 8/16 boxes. The Eaton CH is a bit smaller than the Seimans, at 11"W X 13" high. Lowes has Square D, but I think the biggest they have is 6/12. I'll definately loook into the Square D though at a supply house. The existing FPE panel

In terms of seperate ground bar, the existing wiring in the condo is BX w/o ground, and the feed to the panel is BX and no ground. Do I still need it? I see "ground straps" that come with the new panels, should those be installed?

In terms of quality, any of them better or worse? I know Square D has been around for ages. What about the others?

Reply to
Mikepier

Sorry meant to say the existing FPE panel is 8"X11.5"

Reply to
Mikepier

Thanks for the Square D link. Yeah, that panel would work. But I should mention the stud to the left can be moved/relocated and one of the studs is just a filler, so I can go a little wider. I just came back from HD, and they had Siemans and Eaton CH 8/16 boxes. The Eaton CH is a bit smaller than the Seimans, at 11"W X 13" high. Lowes has Square D, but I think the biggest they have is 6/12. I'll definately loook into the Square D though at a supply house. The existing FPE panel

In terms of seperate ground bar, the existing wiring in the condo is BX w/o ground, and the feed to the panel is BX and no ground. Do I still need it? I see "ground straps" that come with the new panels, should those be installed?

In terms of quality, any of them better or worse? I know Square D has been around for ages. What about the others

** The steel cable is the ground for a BX cable. You do not use the ground strap, as the ground, in this case being the steel of the cables as well as the enclosure itself, must be isolated from the neutral bar. You don't need to install a ground bar unless you plan to install some Romex cables or other type of cable that used a ground wire. All of the mentioned panels are fine. Just try to find one that best suits your needs
Reply to
RBM

is the entires condo main only 50 amps?

Reply to
bob haller

Ok, now heres another question. I am running some new BX. I see HD has MC lite, which is lite metal clad with a ground.I believe the outer metal clad is made out of aluminum. It does feel lighter. And they sell the regular steel clad BX w/o ground. Both seem to run about the same price for about 100ft roll. Can I use the MC lite? Seems like you get both a metal clad and a ground in one cable.

Reply to
Mikepier

Yes.

Reply to
Mikepier

Thanks for the Square D link. Yeah, that panel would work. But I should mention the stud to the left can be moved/relocated and one of the studs is just a filler, so I can go a little wider. I just came back from HD, and they had Siemans and Eaton CH 8/16 boxes. The Eaton CH is a bit smaller than the Seimans, at 11"W X 13" high. Lowes has Square D, but I think the biggest they have is 6/12. I'll definately loook into the Square D though at a supply house. The existing FPE panel

In terms of seperate ground bar, the existing wiring in the condo is BX w/o ground, and the feed to the panel is BX and no ground. Do I still need it? I see "ground straps" that come with the new panels, should those be installed?

In terms of quality, any of them better or worse? I know Square D has been around for ages. What about the others?

*I agree with RBM. If all of your grounds are through the BX armor, then you don't need a ground bar. It is a cheap and easy installation now though in case you add a Romex circuit later. You will need to make sure that all of your connectors and locknuts are tight to ensure good ground continuity through the BX. Do not bond the neutral bar to the panel using the ground straps. That would only be done if this was a main panel. What you have is a sub-panel. The bond strap is already (Or should be) installed at the meter and main breaker location.

I think that Square D QO and the Cutler-Hammer tan line are best known for their higher quality, but any brand should suffice for your needs. Murray is made by Siemens and the circuit breakers are interchangeable. Lowes sells GE panels with white covers for apartments and condos. If you are able to move the stud and install a regular size panel, I suggest something like a

20 circuit or 24 circuit panel or at least a 12/20. You will have more room inside of the panel to work in and plenty of room for future expansion should the need arise.

You may want to get some white electrical tape and apply it to the neutral conductors as it looks as though the color is fading on the existing wiring.

Reply to
John Grabowski

*MC seems to be replacing BX and MC lite is very nice to carry and pull compared to steel. One of the local supply companies that I deal with only stocks MC. You can use MC cable, however the armor may not be an approved grounding conductor. So you would need to install the ground bar for that. Also you need to use connectors that are approved for MC cable. Regular BX connectors are not approved for MC although there are some that are approved for both. You will also need to install anti-short bushings at each end.
Reply to
John Grabowski

I'm a big fan of Square D QO series as top quality. Just a week ago I helped someone replace a failed CH tan breaker feeding their heat pump, nothing wrong on the circuit, strictly a breaker failure. Even disconnected and sitting in my hand the breaker handle would not latch on.

Reply to
Pete C.

*I don't think any breaker is failsafe. I've replaced QO breakers that have gone bad after 20 years. I think loose connections and arcing are contributing factors as is continuously pushing the load to the maximum breaker rating.
Reply to
John Grabowski

Nothing is ever 100%, however this CH breaker was only around 5 years old, original equipment in a recent housing development. Loose connections and arcing will certainly do in otherwise good equipment. I didn't see any signs of either on the CH breaker, indeed the screw terminals were so tight I had to use a wrench on the screwdriver to loosen them. Perhaps overtorquing when it was installed caused internal damage.

I've not personally run across a failed QO breaker, but I'm not an electrician either. I can say that I use QO in all of my personal installations, including my new main panel and shop subpanel which I upgraded at my current house in 2006 and I've not had any issues.

Reply to
Pete C.

*5 years is not much of a life for any brand of circuit breaker. I would check the nameplate on the heatpump to see if it the size required by the manufacturer. Of course there is no telling what happened to the breaker during its trip from the factory to its final stop in the circuit breaker panel (Like everything else).
Reply to
John Grabowski

How many more circuits can I add? The main breaker in the meter room is only 50A. Besides the circuits I mentioned above, I would like to run a new dedicated 20A for the bathroom( being shared by a 15A circuit now) and at least 1 more 20A for the kitchen counter (code calls for 2, I have 1 existing circuit there already).

Reply to
Mikepier

How many more circuits can I add? The main breaker in the meter room is only 50A. Besides the circuits I mentioned above, I would like to run a new dedicated 20A for the bathroom( being shared by a 15A circuit now) and at least 1 more 20A for the kitchen counter (code calls for 2, I have 1 existing circuit there already).

** You can add as many as you have panel space to accommodate. You'll still be limited by the 50 amp feeder and main
Reply to
RBM

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