Did You grow up in The Southeast? I speak several American dialects including Hillbonics, Yankbonics and of course Ebonics. I have to be able to understand a wide variety of languages in order to take care of my business dealings with people. I'm getting pretty good at the job of communicating with people who's English is colored by their native tongue of Urdu or Hindi. Understanding those folks is very important for the purposes of tech support concerning data and telecom systems. 8-)
TDD
Hook....line...and... sinker.
bink .....................
I concur with both of these statements. I still love usenet though, I just wish people would not bring their personal divisive issues into them (unless those divise issues are on-point with the group, of course).
Especially the political bickering.
Jon
If that was the case, I would have just KF'd you. :)
Jon
I'm guilty of a good deal of politicking on the ng, and will avoid more unless it is a thread everyone joins in with intelligent discussion. The OP made a good point, as I have seen a formerly great ng disappear entirely after being taken over by crazy trolls in one narrow interest topic. AHR has been good, but the trolling has increased dramatically in just the past couple of months. Answering the main troll is foolish, and does diminish enjoyment for me. I use Thunderbird for email and news reader and haven't found a way to filter ng messages. I just scroll past the usual trollers (most of the time) and look for something of interest. There is a great deal of good advice, save those who get hostile when a newbie apparently hasn't Googled first :o)
Huh? You've killfiled Doug?
Obama, Bush, the Israelis, the Palestinians - take your pick! (-:
It's pretty clear that more than a few Usenetters are the kind that arrange their peas in a row on their dinner plate, making sure no food touches any other food.
If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out!
Actually, I am impressed that AHR has a number of people who are passionate about their opinions but respectful of others when debating. It tells me there's still hope for the world.
-- Bobby G.
Impressed enough to want to see posts from slow, banana, moron, etc...plus all the spam from gmail? Not I. I don't have time to filter that which I already know I'm not going to read. I just want it gone.
Actually, one of the nicest things about the OT stuff is that some people here are quite capable of having an intelligent discussion about important issues of the day without veiled death threats and total disrespect of the opinions of others (mostly). I am always happy to learn what other people think and why, and if I think it's horribly wrong to try to work through what I see as errors. I expect to be corrected in equal fashion.
I actually see it as a natural part of the way people interact with each other and that's why I have never seen a single newsgroup successfully suppress OT posts. It's hard to overcome human nature.
The OT stuff represents a discussion I might have with guys that came over to help me build a deck, demolish a shed or figure out the safest way to rat out a neighbor to the zoning board. (-: Maybe the OT code should be changed to BEERTALK.
If it isn't allowed to happen here, within constraints agreeable to both sides, where will it happen? It won't happen at all and a little bit of the world will suffer as a result. AHR is a very accurate microcosm of what's happening in society at large. How we get along in AHR mirrors very closely how we get along with others in the real world. It's an opportunity to make things better by setting good examples.
I don't ever mind looking up something for a new poster in Google because I always learn something new myself when I do it. That makes me smarter and that's good. Maybe the third or fourth time I would indicate a little impatience. Obviously, not everyone feels that way and get some sense of satisfaction chastising people they've just met. So be it. I just apologize for them when I see it happen and hope that I can teach that "lazy poster" (not really) to Google and not think this newsgroup is net-nanny central. Googling is an art, and experienced searcher can find stuff way faster than a novice.
That is certainly one mode of newsgroup demise. Mine went that way - a TV show that went off the air and into reruns got repurposed to follow another, unrelated show that already had several of its own groups. Many bitter flame wars followed. Should it have stayed true to a no-longer produced but 'rediscovered daily in reruns' TV show? I don't know how to resolve such situations but I do know it drove a lot of people with a great human knowledgebase away for good.
The warning signs are here. I've seen a favorite newsgroup die not from trolling - it's never trolling, really - it's mortal combat between two or more participants that spirals totally out of hand, often because no one steps in and says: "Foul!" They go postal, create sock puppets, cross-post into hate groups and generally try to be as destructive as they can.
Why? For some of the same reasons there are so many other problems in the world. When people have no stake, they have nothing to lose. They become determined to destroy whatever it is they feel they *should* have a stake in. Think of how many real world situations that applies to.
Mama always said of the endless fights between me and my Satan-taloned sister : "It takes two to tango." Anyone responding to an obvious troll is disrespecting the group and all its members because they think they are scoring "coolness points" by showing the alleged troll "who runs Bartertown." There are many, many people here who know not to feed trolls but when it comes time to ignoring them, they lose control and push send. All it takes is someone coming across one of their own "hot button" issues. Then even the most anti-OT newsgrouper will ignore the rules. It's just human nature.
filter ng messages.
There's got to be a way. Have you Googled it? (-:
And how hard is that, right? If the OT posters put OT in the subject line religiously, much of the issue of OT goes away because there isn't a newsreader I know of that can't filter for those letters. Since there seems to be a strong correlation between plonkers and those who dislike OT posts, it's a win-win. They obviously know how to use killfiles and filters, so it CAN'T be any *real* big deal to them.
That, IMHO, is a far greater "offense" and threat to the health of the group, which like any other needs constant replenishment to account for attrition. "Google that you dumbass" isn't a very nice way to say hello and it doesn't say very good things about the poster's social skills. People have feelings and they won't stick around where they are insulted or belittled. And that hurts the group. Why can't people just take a few seconds to lead by good example?
-- Bobby G.
clipped
Lead by good example? That would change the world! :o) That is pretty much how I see life, but I've encountered some strong, well-armed enemies....being a good example brings out the flaws in the bad examples. Whew! Mama was tough and I'm tryin'.
Good analysis. It's the way I've seen many a newsgroup fail. Kill-filing often leaves the worst offenders around to great new members which never seemed to be a good idea. Plonking seems to be a power trip wherein a person tries to project an authority to make judgements about who can belong to the "in" crowd. It seems to be equal parts: "Look at how bad and weak YOU are and how good and powerful I am."
Similarly, I don't see plonkers as contributing very much to making any group a better place to be. Every time I see a plonk I think of a little girl in pigtails, hands on hips, saying "You can't play with my dollies anymore because I don't like you. Nah, nah!" or even worse as Tweety Bird "Ooh, ooh, you hurt my wittle eyes!" Mostly it's an attempt to portray oneself as a "power" in the group with the right to exclude members. The only problem is - the plonkees are still there after plonking so it rarely had any positive effect. It's just a public announcement of a newly formed hostility towards another poster whom they've adjudged (often quite wrongly) a troll. In fact, I rather think many trolls consider their accumulated plonks as indicators of their success at disruption.
I wish I had a nickel for every plonker who ends up arguing with his plonkee shortly after the plonking occurs. But, hell, it's a free country and people are free to project any image of themselves that they want to the public at large. I just don't see the point of wanted to be seen as an angry Pippi Longstocking or a canary with a lisp. Doesn't seem to be the image of power that a rational person would seek.
Undoubtedly someone will plonk me for expressing this view, to which I say "I've been plonked by far better people than YOU!"
-- Bobby G.
You sound like a very bright guy, Ivan. That was a very good capsule summary of what's been happening to Usenet lately. Indirectly I believe it's also why OT threads continue to evolve here and why it may not be such a bad thing.
I've never seen a group completely ban OT posts without a moderator and those groups are just as troubled in their own way. It's unstoppable human nature to want to discuss things like the big oil spill among people whose opinions on home repair you've come to know and respect. How hard is it to add OT to the subject line or filter on it with your newsreader or you index finger? Not very.
As I've said elsewhere, the OT topics parallel the kind of discussions that might take place if a bunch of us were working together on a home improvement project. Not very harmful, at least compared to whacking on newbies for not following the rules that are not posted anywhere and not even agreed upon to BE rules.
-- Bobby G.
I believe I've only KF'ed only two, which is remarkable for a group this size. Most people really do behave themselves here, and I've seen nothing like what happens in groups that are the victims of deliberately destuctive acts. A little around the edges, maybe, but well within tolerance. Hopefully it can stay that way, especially if OT'ers can remember to show a little consideration by marking their threads OT.
Or, like the BP spill, until the problem is solved or fades from view.
Less panty bunching and more pressing "Next" goes a long way towards keeping the peace.
-- Bobby G.
Impressed enough to tolerate the garbage which my newsreader allows me to easily work around. If I have no interest in a thread, I mark it read and it's done. I wish people could learn to mark OT in the subject line more reliably than I see, but that's correctable through cordial reminders.
I sympathize with people who read lots of groups and don't have time to sort through all the chaff. I've been there, done that, and can remember how pissed I was to have to paddle through 100's of messages about a TV show I hated in a newsgroup devoted to a TV show I loved but that had gone off the air.
The reality is, as much as you or I wanted it gone, it's never going away. Thousands of Usenet groups have already proved that. It comes down to finding an acceptable compromise between the different things people want from the group. That's what most of the world's problems are like: finding an acceptable compromise. Unfortunately we've devolved into a state where "I know I am absolutely right, so YOU are the one who must yield" is the standard response from both sides on a issue. No compromise means no solution short of extermination. In many places in the world, it's now coming to that ugly end game.
-- Bobby G.
But only Usenet is equipped with a twit filter if you want to learn how to use it. Oh, that that was available in life... (g).
I think there is only one person/creature in my killfile and he/she/it is not posting in alt.home.repair. It's so easy to skip a thread with Thunderbird by pressing "R" which marks the thread read without wiping it out by pressing "K". There are threads I may not be interested in at a particular time but someone who has a good head on their shoulders may post something to the thread and I might want to read it. There is so much good information posted to this group by some wonderful folks who know what they're talking about. A famous man once said, "Experience is a fool's best teacher." If I read about what some fool has done to cause damage to whatever, I'm going to pay attention and not repeat his or her mistake. I get a lot of links from this group.
TDD
Word.
I don't think of it that way at all. I plonk all the time, simply because I just don't want to hear from a particular person anymore. I just don't have time to filter out the crap. I will also plonk people who respond to the truly obnoxious like speed and the monkey. I just don't want to see it.
I think PUBLIC plonking is power trip. If I just plonk somebody because he or she doesn't interest me or has proved annoying (I have a couple plonked because every response was largely cuss words or suggesting that I do somethings that appears (at least at my age) to be anatomically impossible), then it is just me deciding that I don't want to socialize with them. If I found them next to me at a bar, I would move down a couple of seats. Same idea. Public plonking, though is saying pretty much what Robert suggests. A little bit of a power trip saying "I don't like you, so no one else should, either." The other annoying thing is when people publicly leave a news group in a Huff (r).
I view public plonking as polite. You're telling the plonkee not to waste his or her time replying to you or waiting for a response from you.
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