Help with redoing the lawn (sod on bad, rocky ground)

[FGreen]

My lawn is ~6 years old, was new when I bought the place. It looked pretty good initially, but later I realized that the ground where the sod was placed didn't have good soil at all. Pretty rocky, and had a heck of time planting a small tree (which looks sickly and isn't blooming much flowers at all).

The lawn now has a lot of dandelions, I mean, a lot. I used one of those extraction tools from Home Depot. It does a decent job, but the roots are rarely taken out completely, and there are just too many. Too many to even use weed-b-gone selectively.

So, I'm thinking of redoing the lawn, probably in the fall, and need your help. I'm thinking I need to

- Till up the ground

- Kill the existing dandelions/weeds with...?

- Put in good soil

- Put in new grass (hydroseed? sod?) (I know I need to do more studying on it, but need to discuss it with a neighbor that shares the lawn in this 2-family home, so basics would be sufficient for now.)

My questions are...

- What tools do I need, if I do it myself? I only have basic gardening tools. Rent a rototiller?

- Is there a way to get rid of existing weeds without using chemicals, once the lawn is dug up? Cover it up to choke it? We've got dogs and young children.

- If not, how long would it take for it to be 'safe' for dogs and children? It'd still be a dug up ground, but you know how kids are... they love dirt!

- Would I be better off hiring someone? (I know that's a very subjective question...)

I'm in New England and the lawn get a lot of sun. I don't think I'd need the soil analyzed, since whatever is there is just almost rocks, and I'd be putting in new soil.

I'd appreciate any help.

[Peter H]

You go crazy and put in a new lawn, but I'd try just spraying the weeds and fertilizing first. If you're worried about the spray hire someone and have everyone stay off the lawn for a couple of days.

Peter H

[FGreen]

Thanks for your response. Either I wasn't clear or you only noticed the subject and a few lines of description, but we're trying to stay as much away from chemicals as possible. It involves the neighbors, so I don't have complete say in the matter. Of course your idea was considered at first, but is a no-go at this point, until we understand all other options.

So, back to my original questions - if you or anyone else can help, that'd be much appreciated.

[Timothy]

Good day FGreen. Sorry to hear about your poor quailty lawn. It can be a real bummer to have a weed patch instead of a lawn. Before we get too far, I have some questions: What is the mowing hight of the lawn? 1", 2", 3"..? What have you done in the past 6 years as far as fertilizer? Do you water the lawn in the summer? Do you let the lawn go dormant in the summer? Have you ever aerated your lawn? Do you re-cycle your lawn clippings (multching mow)?

On to fixing the lawn.......... If the soil quality is poor, then I would start by trying to correct that first. You can compensate for poor soil quailty by using fertilizers and multch mowing. Over time (possibily a long time) the soil quality wil get better. If the organic matter (humus) is very low, it would be best to add new soil / compost. If you find this is the case, then you could overlay the lawn with compost and till it. Look at my post to FardinA on 5/8/2004 at 6:54 pm. I goes through the refurbishing of a lawn with costs and tool requirements.

There is no need to hire out for this type of a job. The average home owner can do this, although the amount of labor required may be too much for some. If the lawn is somewhat large (1500+ square feet) then you would want to rent a tractor for the day. Rent one with a bucket on the front and a tiller on the back. This can cost up to $300.00 a day, but it's worth every penny. You can till the whole area in a few hours and the bucket will make the huge pile of dirt spread a lot faster 80) . I personaly would re-seed the lawn with locally available seed. This means seed for your area. Beware of name brand seed from big box stores. Just because they sell brand X seed at home depo doesn't mean it's correct for your area.

More question etc... just add to this thread.

[FGreen]

Timothy, thanks for the response.

mowing height depends - where there is grass, ~2-3", on bare spots,

0", on dandelion spots, 8+"... ha... sorry for being a smartmouth. I try to keep it high enough to block the weeds, but the situation has reversed itself. We put fertilizers in the fall, once a year. We water infrequently in the summer (to let it go dormant..?) aeration hasn't been done since it was sodded (I know, a mistake) Yes, we use mulching mower. We haven't been very deligent about keeping it up, I have to say.

Yes, I have read that post from you before posting my question. It was probably the closest to what I was looking for and most helpful post I found in search. The only difference would be, we already have a lawn (weed lawn). Do I till it up, or just put new soil on top? Do I need to use chemicals to kill the existing weeds?

My situation is, we're planning on selling the place, and want to make the lawn look good in short timeframe. Don't have the time to wait for seed to germinate, etc., because I need to act quickly once . I don't want to spend too much money, but then I don't want do a non-even-a-half-ass job like the builder did, either.

Is it ok to till up the existing lawn, add some soil, till up some more, and lay down the sod, without adding any weed killers? Again, there's quite a bit of weeds, but I'm trying not to use chemicals if at all possible.

My lawn is ~1000-1100 sq.ft, by the way.

Posting this very late, so I might have left some questions out... I really appreciate your help.

[Chet Hayes]

The first thing I would do is figure out what kind of soil you have, beyond the fact that it is rocky. Grass won't grow on rocks. If you have some half way decent soil with rocks mixed in, you can till and remove the rocks, especially since you only have 1000 sq ft to worry about. You can also till in some humus type material, or additional good topsoil. You should also have the soil tested to establish the correct PH.

On the other hand, if what you have is mostly rocks and gravel, then you need at least 6 inchs of decent top soil, preferably 9 inchs. Whether this can go on top of what is there becomes a grading issue. If it can't then you need to have what's there removed.

If you wind up tilling what is there, I would use Roundup to kill all the existing plants. Roundup is one of the safested chemicals and you can reseed a week after application. Since you're in a hurry, you're going to have to go with sod.

[Fisher Price]

- Cover the ground with an opaque tarp for two weeks to kill the weeds

- bring in good topsoil, enough for 2-3 inches depth of coverage, 20% oragnic for fast growth

- seed using high quality brand name seed, eg. Scot's

Will be much cheaper than sodding or hydroseeding, even if you use the expensive topsoil. Using good soilk and seed, along with regular watering

91-2 times a day depending on how wet your weather is) should get you grass in under two weeks. I did it in July and had new grass in six days, but in 2-3 weeks it was much more mature and spread out.

[Fisher Price]

Well, if you're looking for a short term fix to sell the house, I'd probably patch it with top soil and lawn patch mix, the stuff that is seed + mulch + fertilizer in one, and water it a lot. Can't guarantee any short term fix though, good results will take some time.

Or you could just spray paint everything green!

[William W. Plummer]

Quick fix: annual rye grass ("builders' grass") Good fix: any mix with a high percentage of "tall fescue" seed. It sends roots 2-3' down to get water and doesn't get brown in summer.

[Steveo]

Do you have a link to this tall fescue with 2-3' roots?

[Timothy]

Good mowing hight....

I would tend to fertilize twice a year. I would use half in the spring and half in the fall. It's good to boost the grass in the spring when the nitrogen is low in the soil. Nitrogen is a non-fixed element that moves with water. After the run off of winter, nitrogen is at it's lowest.

With the short time frame, non-chemical requirements and price range, your situation is a bit difficult. No matter how you spin it, sod isn't cheap. If you were to do sod, you could just over lay the native soil after letting a non-selective herbicide do it's work. You would be able to spray and lay with in two weeks. While others rave over Round-up.. I personaly won't touch the stuff. It's a rather toxic chemical and there's lots of proof via the net for those who wish to look for it. I use Finale (product name) or any product with glufosinate ammonium as the main active ingredient. Here's the spec sheet on it:

8 and onward you'll find the toxic's report. Looks rather good to me and the enviroment and that's why I use it in my business.

So here are your options... (imho)

1 herbicide the lawn and re-sod it. Possibly add new top soil before hand. This will cost the most. Up to $200.00 for dirt (10 yards), $20.00 for fertilizer, $20.00 for herbicide, $20.00 for a sprayer (if needed), Roller rental $?.00 and sod $???.00 (price varies)

2 all of above but seed instead of sod. Perennial rye generaly sprouts faster (1 week), but is not as nice (imho). Tall Fescue takes longer (2/3 weeks) and is a bit nicer. 2 weeks for spray and 2or 3 weeks for seed. First mowing in 6 weeks and looks great in 8 weeks 80)

3 least favorite would be to lay weed & feed and re-seed in 3 weeks. Your milage may vary.

Any way you look at it, there really isn't too many ways to get things done in under two weeks. 6 weeks is a bit more workable

[Timothy]

I've used a tall fescue called "crew cut" which is said to have up to 18 inches of root and 13 inches of mature hight. 3 foot... hmm, do I smell a fish story ..? lol

[Steveo]

It might be a pasture fescue, would you plant that in your lawn? :)

[William W. Plummer]

Tall Fescue was derived from a weed grass. You can find it in the Ortho weed book. Scotts has finally come out with a tall fescue, Rebel II is a label you'll see, and I seem to recall a company named York having a product. You must read the labels, looking for "tall fescue" only in the mix. Other fescues won't help you.

[Steveo]

You don't have to tell me what turf type tall fescue is. So I ask you again..Do you have a link to this tall fescue with

2-3' roots?

[Timothy]

Could you name one lawn type that didn't derive from a 'weed' grass? Just because ortho claims it to be a weed doesn't make it true. What is a weed anyway but an un-wanted plant? I would personaly suggest that anyone planting grass should look for a mix of grasses. Tall fescue is not perfect for all situations in the lawn. All this talk a side, you still side step the real point of these posts. You made a claim and have not provide evidence of your claim. I highly doubt that there is a lawn type grass that will root to three feet.

Scotts Rebel II isn't a tall fescue, but a red fescue as far as I can tell:

fescue description:

[William W. Plummer]

Mind your manners, please. Here is a quote from a

. Paul's credentials are on the home page of the site.

"The next seed to germinate will be Tall Fescue the seed that makes your lawn look good all year long. This plant will produce a root system 3 to 4 feet deep into the ground to find water during dry periods and water bans. Tall Fescue will need ..."

[Steveo]

Oh, so now it's 3 to 4 foot roots on tall fescue. Bullcrap.

[I Am Not George]

FYI Mr. Plummer, if you disagree with steveo he will attempt to find out your address and harass you. He has done this a number of times in the rec.radio.cb NG even going so far as to go to peoples houses and take pictures and post them on the internet without there permission. He does all this while hiding his identity so they can not retaliate..

[Steveo]

He's right. Here's a pic of his wife. ::shudder::