Hi,
My burner service guy removed the pump on my Beckett head and screwed in a small set screw. He said that this would make the pump return the fuel back to the tank and that without this set screw the pump wouldn't return the fuel. Does this sound right?
Thanks in advance.
This is true only if you have the second line (return line) that is used in a 2 pipe system that returns the fuel oil back to your tank. Otherwise, without that plug he installed, the fuel oil that does not go though the nozzle into the combustion chamber just dumps over the pump's relief valve and circulates in the pump.
Stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Bob
That Holiday Inn Express thing is mighty impressive, DIMwit! :-)
-zero
So the screw he installed was the right thing to do. That it good to know.
I had a 14 year old wayne head and it was replaced about 2 months ago with an AF Beckett head and aquastat. I was having lockouts with the Wayne head and other parts were starting to fail so I went for a new Beckett. After the new head was installed all was fine for about a month and then I started to get lockouts again. The guy came back and installed the bypass plug ( iI have a two line system). It ran fine for about a month and right after a fill up of oil I got a few lockouts again. My service guy came back and tried to install a priority relay but he couldn't get it to work. He now wants to install a tiger loop.
I have an underground tank that is about 3 feet above my burners. It's a short run from the tank to the house where the oil line is split. One oil line goes to my boiler and a Reillo head while the other line goes to a Beckett head and my Bock oil fired water heater. The Reillo has never locked out. I ran two head like this for years without any lockouts. On the line that goes to the Beckett I have an oil filter on the line and a check valve. I have a filter on the other line too. I was thinking of having the oil filter removed and running the line from the tee to the Beckett head to eliminate as many possible air leaks as possible. I'm thinking there may be a slight leak in the oil filter or one of the connections that is pulling oil from the pump when it's off causing the lockouts. The tech wants a lot of money for the Tiger loop and seems to be stumped. What do you think??? Oh yeah both retunr lies are teed and back into the tank too. Thanks in advance.
It sounds like from day one the problem hasnt been addressed.........only the symptoms. You're on the right track though. With enough money and a technician willing to keep throwing parts at it you'll eventually get it right. Bubba
You've got a parts changer. If the level in the tank is higher than the pump, you don't need a Tiger Loop. And you don't need a 2 pipe system.
Get rid of the plug he put in the pump. Get rid of the return line. Set the Riello for single pipe as well. Put a vacuum gauge on the pump and see what the vacuum is. It should be minimal unless there's some sort of restriction. Try it with both units running. You use a TL or 2 pipe system (not us) to compensate for excessive lift or long horizontal run. The Beckett will work with up to 6" vacuum no problem.
The problem may be the Beckett pump is moving more oil than the pump on the old burner did and the vacuum is excessive with the 2 pipe system. We switch many 2 pipe systems to single pipe. It often does away with high vacuum and air leakage issues.
Do you have a 10 micron filter immediately before the burner? Something like a Garber spin on filter? Looks like an automotive oil filter. You don't replace just the media, but the whole canister.
What's the priority relay for? So if the water heater aquastat is calling the boiler won't run? If he can't figure that out. But if you really want one. Use a circ relay. Energize the relay in parallel with the burner to the WH. When the WH aquastat calls for the burner to come on the circ relay is energized. Jumper TT. Connect the NC switch in the circ relay in series with the boiler's aquastat B1, between B1 and the burner. When the WH aquastat calls, the NC switch in the circ relay opens the circuit to the burner and the boiler burner can't fire. This let's the circ(s) run. Or you could break the low voltage wires going to the boiler aquastat TT and kill both the circs and the burner.
My guess is if your information is accurate and there aren't other problems in the piping, you could eliminate the return line, switch both pumps to single pipe setups and this problem would go away...assuming it's a high vacuum or possibly a minimal air leak.
They should have offered you an >So the screw he installed was the right thing to do. That it good to >know.
HAHA set-screw.
That's a good nickname for bubba!
HAHA
-Canadian Heat
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HAHAHA bubbs is great, can't fix shit but loves to trash talk.
Furnace cleaner! You are a set screw!
-Canadian Heat
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Steve: Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post and headache.
This make sense. Are you saying that running two burners off one line works with less headaches with a one line system?
I ran the old Wayne head along side the Riello for years with no problems but then I started to get sporadic lockups. My tech convinced me to change out the head to a new becket. He used the old piping. All was fine for about a month and then I got another lockup and lockups were sporadic after that. So my logic would tell me that it's not the Beckett pump creating too much Vacuum because this was happening with the Wayne head too.
I had one before each burner and today I had another plumber replace the line from the tee, coming out of the tank and wall, back to the Beckett head and he also put in a new canister filter. I have my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work then I'm going to ask them to go to a one line system as you suggested.
I'm not sure if he couldn't figure it out of if the relay was bad. The heater burner would cycle on and off after he installed the relay. He gave up after about 2 hours. I couldn't get him back after that. He just blew me off.
This sounds like the next step if the current fix doesn't work. He showed me his flares which looked better than what was there and he said that everything was good and tight. Are there any dissadvantages with a one line system? Would this keep one burner from starving the other?
I was offered this by the last tech he wanted 600.00. When I moved into my house 14 years ago the tech convinced me to put in the Bock heater because the boiler wasn't up to heating a large drafty house and also making domestic hot water. I guess with an inderect tank it might work.
Thanks in advance.
Sounds like you have already made up your mind.
There is none so blind as he who will not see.
And Steve put it in plain and simple terms...
Now the OP just needs to find a competent tech like Steve to do the work!
Running just one burner on a single line system is less problematic. You pump the nozzle with a single line and pump the pump with a 2 line.
So if you have 2 burners, each using 0.75 gph the maximum fluid through the line on a single pipe system is 1.5 gph. The same burners with 2 pipe may try to move 50gph or more. The vacuum can be huge. With that comes increased chance of air leakage. Higher vacuum makes a tiny air leak a big air leak.
It may be there's a very small air leak. Might be very tough to find with an underground tank. With a basement tank we pug both ends and pressurize with air. Usually find it pretty quickly.
The only disadvantage with a 1 pipe system is you have less suction. The typical Beckett pump you see on a residential piece of equipment will pull 6" vacuum. 2 pipe system is about double. But if your tank is higher than the burner it's gravity unless there is some serious restriction.
$600 doesn't even start to cover the cost of parts. We don't upsize a boiler for DHW production. Not needed. Just prioritize the WH.
Being a home moaner in the same house for 36 years gives me some experience in my heating system.
Becoming a cheap f*ck is the way I look to some, but the only reason I mess with my oil burner and boiler is because for the past 36 years I have had many service companies (yes they were all oil dealers) service my system. Each and every guy that came to my house thought a lot of himself and his abilities, but turned out to be just another useless lazy f*ck.
I guess had bad luck all those years?
Anyhow, I have to buy oil from an oil dealer. I prefer not to buy from a "COD" dealer. I get a service contract from each and every dealer I have bought oil from. Some contracts were free, some I paid for. They were necessary because I used to be out of town a lot and wanted my family to be able to get the system fixed quickly if something broke down.
For the past 10 years I have been in the office. I keep service contracts for just emergency service and parts if something breaks down early am or weekends.
I have replaced the combustion chamber (wet pack chamber in my '86 Weil McLain 4 section P68V 5 years ago. the service company wanted 700 bucks. I bought the kit at Blackman for 32 bucks and put it in in about an 1 1/2 to 2 hours. No hinge on the old boiler front plate like the newer Gold series. The burner was a Wayne Blue Angel HS. none of the dealer's service guys apparently knew how to set it up to burn clean and always bitched about it. I assumed they were cleaning the boilers heat exchangers on each annual service. Yeah, right. Last December, the service guy came and said the Wayne was a piece of garbage and I should replace it with a better burner. He admitted that nobody was familiar with setting it up. To me it looks like it only has 1 extra adjustment ( the air baffle ). He replaced the nozzle and electrodes, said he cleaned the boiler again. 2 weeks later something happened again. I opened the peep hole to look and a blast of soot and flame shot out. Chimney clog? No way; the boiler was plugged almost solid. I took the top off, saw WTF!!! I bought a soot saber and the correct brush. The soot saber was necessary to bust through all that shit. You COULD NOT SEE the cast iron! I took out 2 or 3 quarts of shit from the boiler.
I figured if these guys can't work on a Blue angel, I'll get something they should all know, a Becket AFG. Yeah, cheap f*ck Bob put it in himself, bought it at Blackman for just under 280 bucks or so, complete (it was not a package) with the frame, air tube, nozzle and whatever. Bought new smoke pipe and damper. Set it all up by eye (guess I should have spent a grand on a Bacharach combustion analyzer too). and It ran so sweetly. Still does.
I hired another company, got the system into pristine shape, asked them to start out with an inspection and tune up. The guy had no combustion analyzer other than his eyeballs. Said it looked good. I yawned when he said he would come back. He never did. Never needed to yet. The smokepipe is still clean inside. I never want to clean another boiler again, so from now on I'll have to watch the tech like a hawk. I hate that, cause I never liked to be watched that way when I was a tech in my job. Just not comfortable.
I've said enough on this and won't even get into why I put in the oil return line to my tank.
Yeah, the Holiday Inn express is a good commercial.
No, I don't think I am smart at all; just not a lazy f*ck either. I guess I deserved everything above? Bubba, any comments?
Bob
There is one thing that's a bit unique with the Blue Angel burner. They have a cast end cone that is adjustable. I've only found the instructions for the dang thing in the burner installation instructions. Not on any burner setup info. Every one I've seen has been left the way it came from the factory with way too much secondary air. That is air that moves between the end cone and retention head.
They can generally be made to run decently. We have a few out there but they can be a PITA. Much prefer a Riello.
FWIW, a perfectly clean unit can soot up in about 2 days. Ask me how I know. :)
I have to ask, why do you have a return? If you REALLY need >Being a home moaner in the same house for 36 years gives me some experience
Well, of course. How did you guess? :-) First off, I never did like oil companies that supply oil to work on oil equipment. Most of them are good at selling oil, NOT working on the appliances. You should try a regular hvac company for that HOWEVER, you've got to find one that owns, uses and knows how to interpret combustion efficiency tools. I wouldnt even let a company walk in the door if the tech didnt have it. Guess what, I dont like to clean sooted boilers either. Now you know how we feel. I had a call Sat afternoon. Woman about 20 mins away out in the county. Explaining on voicemail how she has an oil furnace and her husband went to replace the oil nozzle and now it seems to be "air bound". !!!??? WTF. Just what every homeowner needs to do late on a Sat afternoon. Attempt their own oil repair. I didnt even give the lady the satisfaction of a call back. I wasnt about to spend my Sat afternoon into the evening sitting on some strangers cold basement floor piecing back together their oil burner they had laying out on the floor. If you got yours working all by yourself..........wonderful but your playing with a ticking soot bomb not getting a new burner setup properly. Find someone that knows how and have it done. There, that didnt hurt too much now, did it? Bubba
Hi Steve,
can you clear up one thing for me? you said the 2 pipe system because of all the oil it pumps causes a high vacuum. Where? the oil is just recirculating back to the tank, and the tank is vented anyway. I guess you mean that more than one pump pulling from the same tank fitting causes "competition" between the two pumps?
In 2002, I installed a Super Store Ultra 45 gallon unit. It is absolutely fabulous. I set it up with its own 1" zone valve and lines and made my own priority zone relay setup. Being a controls guy, it was quite simple to do for me. I have my "little" 4 section W/M boiler feeding a total of 5 zones in my house including the water heater running a 1 gallon nozzle. It keeps up with the coldest days.
I did have a little sludge problem in my basement oil tank over a year ago (plugged up line), and after trying to clean it up as much as possible, the tank bottom seemed to be still OK, and I ran the 2nd oil line with it deep enough in the tank to keep things stirred up and a few filter cartridges later, things were cleaned up. The line had plugged up back then requiring the CO2 pressure to blow the shit back in the tank. Been OK since. Condensation and whatever makes nasty sludge.
Bob
It was the best money I ever spent on the house.
Why I ran the second line I answered in another message a few minutes ago.
Bob
You have a line of fixed size. Will there be greater resistance to suction (increased vacuum) if you pull 1gph or 30gph through it?
We are big fans of indirect water heaters. Not such a big fan of HTM, the manufacturer of SuperStor WHs.
We use a product called STR-2. At least that's what I think it's called. I'd have to look at the jug. Whenever we start seeing evidence of sludge in the tank filter we add some to the tank. Essentially it breaks down the sludge and helps get it out of the tank. You do need to be careful if the tank is real nasty. We have used it to recover tanks that sat for years unused. It took about 4 years and dosing it twice a year with a filter change after every dose, but the tank was clean after that.
Here's a link to the product we use.
recirculating
Hi Steve,
I used Hercules "Sludge Treat" 1 quart can to my 275 Gallon tank twice, about a month apart. I did seem to loosen up the sludge pretty well. I don't know if it really has any sludge prevention properties.
Also, out of curiosity, what is it about the Super Stor waters heaters you do not like? I installed mine in 2002 and it works great. Do they develop leaks or other problems prematurely? they sure seem well insulated, and have stainless steel tanks. I piped mine with the 1 inch supply and return to the boiler, as the specs wanted. I am sure you have a reason to not like them, so I would like to know why, please.
Bob
Well, Bob, I would be MORE than happy to share why I won't be buying any HTM products soon. We've installed a number of SuperStor WHs. We installed on for a client about a year and a half ago. He called us up because water started showing up on the floor.
We go and determined the well had started leaking. Little tiny pin holes in the flat end of the stainless well. We picked up a new well, put it in and returned it to the distributor. HTM refused to replace it as it's not a part of the tank but a separate part and while the tank has a lifetime warranty against leaks, parts are only covered for a year.
We only provide a 1 year part and labor warranty, but we had sold the SuperStor with a lifetime warranty against leaks. I told the HO the story and covered the repair out of my pocket.
About 6 months later he wants a new high efficiency boiler. Guess what wasn't even offered and he now has a nice new Buderus GB142 in there.
I w>Also, out of curiosity, what is it about the Super Stor waters heaters you
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