Spot On. Good post.
Charlie
"With all their faults, trade unions have done more for humanity than any other organization of men that ever existed. They have done more for decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race, for the developing of character in men, than any other association of men." Clarence Darrow:
Right on.
School choice is as natural as choosing a physician or a car dealer.
Wages are not based on "how important" the job is that someone does. If they were, the highest paid person in the community would be the teenage lifeguard at the local swimming pool
Wages are based on how easy it is to find someone to do the job. It is difficult to find neurosurgeons, and easy to find hamburger flippers. Once upon a time, it was easy to find laborers, so they were paid low wages. They didn't like it and organized, extorting those who would hire them. Thus, were unions born.
So, for most of the 20th century, you had to have talent or a union card, but you didn't usually have to have both. As it takes only normal body temperature and about four years time to become a teacher * , they soon found the field flooded. Thus were teachers' unions born. Predictably, teacher quality (and give-a-shit factor) bottomed out. Higher wages would only increase the flood and decrease -- hard to believe -- quality.
cheers
oz, who thinks "professional union" is a wonderful oxymoron
*Go to any college, public or private, state college or research university and check the records. The lowest SAT / ACT scores are in the School of Education, both students and faculty. Some states (WA, WY that I know of) are certifying teachers only if they get a "real" degree with some courses in pedagogy, and not allowing degrees in education to lead to certification. Hard to believe that there is a more useless degree than psych / soch.
Since some psychiatrists are awful and some psychologists work wonders for people, the latter degree seems pretty worthwhile.
According to Scott Adams, comparative literature ranks among the most worthless. In of of his Dilbert cartoons:
Dilbert is on a computer and a fellow walks up behind him and goes: Generic Guy: "Hey, Dilbert, would you mind stopping by my house after work and seeing if you can fix my computer?" Dilbert: "Sure. And while I do that you can be at my house cleaning the grout in my shower." Generic Guy (with a shocked expression): "That's crazy talk." Dilbert: "Hey. I'm not the one who majored in comparative literature"
I had an English teacher in 9th grade, a fellow born American who couldn't spell. I think one of the problems is that there are so many rich/famous people who really didn't need an education to get where they are(Bush has already been mentioned, but another case in point of low priorities of education. How many 'celebrities' these days have a college degree?). I know I was always an 'oddball' in school for actually wanting to learn. Most of the other kids were just in school because it was legally required, but they didn't give a damn about an 'education'. We moved around so much that I had to get my GED just so I could start community college on schedule, since I was two years behind where I was supposed to be. And I was happy to be in college where people are there because they want to be, not because it's mandated by law. I think it would help if in grade/high school, the standards were higher, because as I remember it(having been done with school for years now, I've tried to repress most of it), you could graduate even with only a D average. That doesn't give most kids a reason to try harder than that. I might have considered being a teacher if I didn't know the downsides of it, because I know I'd get summers and holidays off.
Hell Mike, you're quite the self-made man, who was able to work the system to get where you are, and screw the rest of the dumb bastards, aren't you?
I'll bet you even thought Joe McCarthy did good things. Bustin' them damn unionists.
Guess you don't know much of the history of this country, or the suffering that people suffered, particularly in the South. Maybe you just learned your history from the sanctioned, sanitized versions, and swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Charlie, who had the first ripe tomatoes from the garden today, which removed the bitter taste from my mouth, left there by Mike's post
In California, you need at least a BA degree and whatever it takes for a credential (1 1/2 to 2 years of training).
Oz is one of the posters who claimed knowledge but would never reference it. Take his opinions with a hand full of salt.
On the other hand, poetry will assuredly raise your IQ, even if it is compared. There are no dumb subjects, but there are, most assuredly, dumb people. I think Scott Adams was trying to be funny, not profound. There are lots of courses that will make you a better person, then there are courses that will make you a well paid person. A smart person will try to do both.
Billy, ya' kinda followed the others sideways off the track here, my friend. The original post, this thread, was not about quality or direction of education, or education at all, .....the Major directed it that way. One might wonder about his background and motives.
Many of those who were/are dependent upon the unions for their survival, and for equity, were/are not concerned, nor had/have the opportunity, for "courses".
Remember Poland and Lech Walesa?
This electrician, how many courses did he take? What was his direction.....better or richer? I think neither.
There are many smart people who eschew "Higher Education", or who have not the opportunity.
Tried the Green Bean Amandine recipe yet? Would go well with ribs.
Charlie
This post has glimmers of truth scattered through a bitter and cynical message.
Having been through an education course*, of boundless boringness. taught by a stereotype oldie complete with 1890's hair in bun, and having heard more than once that education courses are the pits, I'll grudgingly buy into part of OP's Jeremiad.
I will also agree that teachers should be expert in the fields they teach, which means that the young teachers now being recruited to teach scientific and technical subjects usually do not have training and real world experience in those fields.
So maybe if teachers' salaries were equivalent to what a scientist or technological expert could earn in their fields, maybe the Ideal OP describes in several states could find a home in more states.
And maybe underpaid teachers wouldn't have to spend sometimes thousands a year buying the equipment and supplies the school should be furnishing!!!!!
I never did see the good in having education curricula be determined locally. You end up with Dover-style creationist merde at the worst, as well as uneven resources according to race and income.
Whereas France. e.g. manages very well having every child in every school in the whole country be on the same page on the same day.
I hasten to specify that GOOD American curricula allow for more independence thinking and innovation and less ingest-regurgitate than, say, Japan, where years ago (maybe it's better now) I visited a high school where polite, blue-uniformed, regimented boys could read and write but not speak a word of English.
As to how teachers' unions were born, I refer OP to my earlier Jeremiad about the labor movement. Before unions, teachers were paid shit, almost all were women (you notice men only started entering the profession when salaries started going up!!!). and teachers could be sexually harassed and discriminated against and fired for no cause.
As a card-carrying non-elitist sow, I deplore the elitist attitude toward the underprivileged organizing to equalize the playing field.
P.
If labor hadn't organized, we would still be working 12-14 hour days,
6-7 days a week, from the age of 5 years old, under unsafe working conditions. One reason that slavery never made much of an impression on the industrial north is because industrialists realized that if you bought a slave, you had a financial investment in them, whereas you could work a free man to death and simply replace him/her at no cost. Our working conditions today exist only because brave, desperate, people put their bodies on the line and said, " no" to blood sucking companies who are backed by our kleptocracy in Washington D.C..It's sad that with the exception of the longshoreman's union, I can't think of an other union that truly represents it's members any more. Still, it's the only protection labor has from corporate exploitation.
That true, to the point where it's pathetic. Two years ago, I got a couple of price estimates from plumbers for a pipe modification in my basement. I'd had the exact same work done in my previous home for $500.00. The plumbers quoted $1400.00 and $1800.00 for the work in the new home. One of the plumbers had done the work in my prior home, and when I asked about the price difference, he offered an explanation which should've earned him a pie in the face, but I didn't have a pie available at the moment.
Through pure chance, a friend had once used a plumber whose main source of work was commercial and residential construction, and who did some work on the side. His price was excellent, and his explanation was that he was used to working fast, and he did the same thing for his side work on weekends. Why drag out a job when he'd rather be fishing? And, he considered his customers to be smart people, so how could he charge for 3 days of labor when a job obviously took 3 hours? Guys like this get work through word of mouth. They don't need to be listed in the yellow pages.
Unfortunately, the guy had moved elsewhere, so I called the plumber's union and asked if they could give me a few names of people doing lots of commercial work. I was told to check the yellow pages. I said I didn't believe in totally random choices. The thing on the phone said they didn't normally connect homeowners with plumbers. I asked "Well, what DO you do? This seems like a good place to shop for a plumber". To make a long story short, I concluded that the union, in this case, does nothing at all.
Annoyed at this point, I pushed the project further down on my home improvement list and forgot about it, until one day, the woman cutting my hair said her husband was a plumber. I got his phone number for future reference. The next day, the plumbing in question informed me that waiting any longer was not an option. Her husband stopped by and quoted $200-$300, depending on options that don't matter here. Done deal. I mentioned my experience with the union, and he said the only reason he was a member was that some builders won't hire non-union workers. And, certain insurance benefits were good, but no better or worse (in principle) than those offered by any other employer.
He agreed that finding the right people is pretty much a roll of the dice.
Obviously you are not a teacher. My husband is a high school teacher for inner city kids. Many of these kids live in the chaos of drug use, violent abusive parents OR, parents absent because of multiple jobs, or, drugs, or, because they didnt want the kids to start with. these parents are uneducated, dysfunctional, undisciplined and are producing uneducated, dysfunctional, undisciplined children.
School is not where children learn discipline.
School is not where children learn respect for others.
School is not where children learn to get along with others.
School is not where children learn hygiene.
School is not where children learn "family values, etc"
School is where adults teach children to read, write, how to think and what they need to be a good citizen and be able to get a job.
Teachers are not parents, cops, social workers, nurses, psychologists. When everyone starts blaming the education of teachers let us not forget that every state lets parents homeschool and the requirements are almost non-existent.
"The only legal requirement in Wisconsin is that prior to October 15 of each school year you file a form PI-1206, Home-Based Private Educational Program declaration.
Beyond that it is *recommended* that you keep 1) a copy of your school calendar verifying a minimum of 875 hours of instruction and 2) course outlines verifying that you're using a sequentially progressive curriculum."
BTW, on their website one of the buttons is marked "Homeschool Cirriculum Questions"
I dont believe most states require testing by the state to determine if the children actually ARE learning anything.
In Wisconsin, the children who ace the SATs, get the National Merit scholarship awards, win most of the science fair awards are from public schools in the BURBS, the wealthier the burbs, the better the kids do.
same teachers same unions different kids
At this inner city school where my husband teaches science he assembled a bunch of kids, and only those kids passing in their other courses, only those kids who behave, and he coached them to taking first in both the national team and individual spots in their division. His kids beat the kids from the wealthy suburbs, beat the kids from private schools.
The key was he would not tolerate any trouble from any of them.
Choice schools get the same benefits, they CAN expel any trouble makers. In public schools teachers have to teach the good students and the bad ones throwing punches, spitting, using foul language and doing everything they can to disrupt the classroom.
So whomever it is thinks the problem is the teachers, think again.
Ingrid
sorry about that Cheryl, I got all the >>>>> wrong I guess, didnt see who was OP. Ingrid
Schools are composed of three components. Students Teachers Administration
My husband, a PhD in microbiology who taught at college level, wrote grant proposals that were funded, and did research decided that his true calling was teaching inner city high school students.
In every case it was the administration, non-union and POLITICAL that was the cause of misery.
He was required to take an environmental science course despite the fact that he taught this course for 2 years to education majors. He could not get a waiver.
The district was so desperate for science teachers that they hired him without the certificate as a temp and paid him about $17K per year, which was 1/2 of what he had been making the year before. During this time we had to pay for his education courses. Of course, we had to move into the city and buy a house to meet that requirement.
After teaching (effectively) for 2 years without the certificate he got his certificate and applied for a regular teaching position and was put through an "urban preceptor" which was a phone interview by administration in which they were supposed to determine IF he was likely to be able to teach inner city kids. He failed the interview. Fortunately, the principle of the school he was teaching at had the power to keep him anyway.
It became very apparent that my husband was on the base wage track of a teacher with an BS, not even getting the MS bump. It took the unions a year fighting the administration to get them straightened out that people who go from BS to PhD dont have to get the MS to get the appropriate pay. They got his back wages as well as reimbursement for the year he worked without health care benefits.
This coming year my DH is offering two new courses at his high school, one in Biotechnology and one in Robotics. Students have signed up and filled two classes of biotech and he gets to decide which he will let in based on past grades and behavior. The school is already a "science" magnet, but it is really on the move, thanks in large part to my husband.
He almost didnt stick with his dream and the problem wasnt the unions, it was the administration.
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