Pepper saga.......... Pepper expert anyone?

[Marie Dodge]

In hot dry weather and drought conditions these soaps can harm the plants as can the light summer ag oils.

[Pat Kiewicz]

In reference to wheat flour/buttermilk mite remedy:

Actually, I should have said "no, I've never used it myself." I rarely use any pesticides these day, and even those are mainly limited to soap and pyrethrin.

Neem oil has some very few legitimate uses but is touted as a panacea. And there is no such thing as a panacea. I would have warned you off that...

Lime sulfur, maybe, as per info at:

sulfur is a long-standing remedy for a long list of mites, including mange mites and chiggers as well as horticultural pests.)

BUT! I wouldn't expect any remedy (even Kelthane, if you could get it) to help at this point. But dusts (flour or mineral) are legitimate remedies for insects and mite pests. Call them 'particle films' and they even sound ...exciting:

Which takes you to:

document contains the following line:

"Although not mineral-based, Ghate and Marshall (1962) suppressed eggs and mobile forms of European red mite and two-spotted spider mites with a combination of buttermilk and wheat flour."

The kaolin-based product, Surround (R), which is mention in the document cited above, is available mail-order to home gardeners from various places (if anyone is interested).

Hell, even people who *don't* live out in the country are surrounded by other peoples yards with plenty of trees, bushes, weeds and flowers which are *completely* beyond their control, let alone being beyond their

*budget*! Why did you assume I meant such a hugely extensive action?

Perhaps I should have thrown in the word "immediate" before "vicinity." As in, if you have a row of raspberries, or a hedge row, or a couple of peach trees next to the garden, spray *them* (they almost certainly need the protection, after what's happened this year).

Next year, you will need to invest in prevention, which is always less expensive and more effective than trying to cure. (Prevention is less expensive, though not FREE.)

Right now you are hit hard with "throwing good money after bad" regret/anger, and the fact that the most reasonable action at this point is to destroy everything you planted for this year, which hurts.

HURTS BIGTIME!

[Pat Kiewicz]

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Which is why my practice when I use a soap spray is to do it in the coolest part of the day, then rinse the plants with fresh water afterwards.

Soap kills very quickly. Hit the pests with a good soaking spray of soap solution, then come back to the start of your spray circuit and do a rinse, and the pest will have died and the foliage damage should be minimal.

I can absolutely vouch for this with earwigs, aphids, and leaf beetles.

[Billy]

I'll second that. Very informative post. Thank you Pat.

[Marie Dodge]

I know what you mean. I seldom had bug/insect problems in my gardens. This is the first wf and sm I've ever seen here. Usually just a few tomato horn worms, a squash bug or two and a couple Japanese beetles... they've never been a problem. Only SBV are here every year.

I have no way to know who tried the products they recommend and who just makes suggestions because someone told them it worked for their brother's sister-in-law's tenant's daughter.... you know what I mean.

After looking at the one garden today I don't think it would matter anymore. The season ends here in Mid October. There's no time left to get a pepper crop. The damage to the plants is too severe. Too many weeks wasted trying things people recommended that didn't work, or barely worked. The smelly Organicide is slowing working, but it's too late now. It will take to long.

I'll look for it locally. Shipping today often costs more than or the same as the product itself. And at this point these plants are hardly worth pouring more money on.

Sorry, must have misunderstood you.

Oh... OK. Gotcha. :^)

Yep, it's got one week for us to see serious improvement. If none, then everything from that garden is being burned, cremated. The ashes will be spread out by the road. We're not using anything from the gardens for compost this year. We found a place to get loads of mulch to compost from the city. It's all shredded tree limbs, bark and leaves. Next year I'll start spraying the plants the day I set them out.

[Marie Dodge]

Reading these posts I can see how lucky we've been all these years. Seldom had to spray for anything. Gardens thrived. Plants produced abundantly. Almost no "pest" problems. All I had to was plant them, mulch and water them.... and pick baskets full of clean almost free veggies. By the time blight was getting a good start on some of the tomatoes, frost finished them off.

>

[Ashley Hunt]

Yes you are right every insecticide must be use with care.

[Penelope Periwinkle]

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath? Do they make pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I moved into this house in June of 2001.

Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such an explosion of the white fly population. And... thrips, they were just not as obvious at first.

So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring released more lacewings and ladybugs. I talked to my neighbors with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides, and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here. I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.

Penelope

[John Savage]

You might be interested in an aphid spray I use. 1 part denatured alcohol +

3 parts water. Spray onto the pests. They cease moving immediately, and more importantly, never move again. I have not found it to harm any plants, but there is nothing stopping you hosing it off 10 mins after applying if you wish, as by then it has done its job. As always, it would be wise to do a test spraying on just one plant initially, and then on the others 2 or 3 days later. I've found it ideal for killing aphids clustered on the tender new tips of plants such as roses and lemons.

Denatured alcohol is called "methylated spirits" here in Australia. It's just ethyl alcohol with a trace amount of an evil-tasting stuff to stop people drinking it and evading the alcohol tax. (You could use cheap vodka in place of the alcohol I suppose!!)

You could try it on spider mite. I have used it on small grubs, but doubt that it would kill whitefly.

I read that aphids can over-winter on thistles. Skeptical, next winter I took a closer look. They sure do: the leaves were thick with aphids. Then I found one milk thistle with no aphids on its leaves. I pulled it up and found its roots clad in an overcoat with aphids! So one measure you could take is to make sure there are no milk thistles in fallow parts of your garden.

[polecanoe]

marie: It sounds like you ruined your plants with all the sprays. you need to read a good book about integrated pest management, and realize that most sprays have adverse impacts. you obviously have no clue of the cumulative adverse impacts of all the chemicals you used. those plants are living things, not machines. Think for a minute, if you are klilling your plants, what it will do to you to eat those peppers? then think about all the money you wasted growing toxic peppers.

I have grown large quantitites of peppers for over 30 years with no pesticides and only year had a virus problem late in the season associated with unusual cold and wet weather. Mites and whiteflies should not be a problem outdoors, their natural enemies will take care of them, but you killed their natural enemies. remove and compost your plants, forget about mites. and plant hairy vetch as a cover crop to prepare for next year.

[Marie Dodge]

Yes. I must use a bandanna not to inhale them. I haven't looked at the window screens at night.

Do they make

The type we have do not leave the plants.

As I mentioned in another post. My ex-husband released these same "beneficials" plus a third (I can't recall the 3rd one) in the old garden where I used to live. In 48 hours we couldn't find one left! Not one, but the pests were still there. And even back then they were expensive. How did you keep them from flying away?

I talked to my neighbors

I'd like to know how you kept them in your garden. I know my ex-husband was bitterly disappointed they were all gone in 2 or maybe 3 days leaving him with a nice charge on his chargecard and the pests still there to deal with. I'm not sure what all was infesting that garden but do remember the cucumber beetles, root worms on the root crops, corn ear worms, SVBs, tomato horn worms and something that about wiped out the asparagus as he waited for the beneficials to arrive. He bought some pesticide from a local Co-op and sprayed the garden several times.... but that was apparently before all these insects and bugs developed immunity because it took care of the problem quickly. I remember the corn, rootcrops and squash being a total loss. He sprayed them too late but we did save the other crops.

Something is, that's for sure. Oddly enough the two older gardens only have whitefly and are still producing. The garden with the spider-mite and WF is a total loss - and that's the new garden that laid fallow two years due to my accident. It's never been sprayed with anything.

[Marie Dodge]

Thanks for the info John. Aphids haven't been a problem here at all but will try it if some appear. I haven't seen an aphid in ages. The 2-spotted spider mite and common Whitefly appear to be immune to everything including oils (summer and Neem). Today I noticed my prize Gardenia on the back porch has MEALY BUGS!!!!!!!! :*(

[Marie Dodge]

Uh no, what ruined them is using useless organic sprays and powders, allowing the pests to reach proportions that no chemical can now control. By the time I turned to chemicals it was too late. The plants were too far gone with spider mites and the w/flies to save.

Pro-organic rant snipped.

[R M. Watkin]

Hi All,

Try washing up liquid. It is cheap and effective.

Richard M. Watkin.

[Marie Dodge]

What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?

[jellybean stonerfish]

Soap you use for washing. You make a spray and wash away the aphids and other little buggers. Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap. Kills them dead. Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative would be "Joy" or "Dawn". Whatever liquid dish soap you use for hand washing. If you get a sprayer, you can do it larger scale. Look for the problems, and spray/wash them away.

p.s. Dish soap water also makes an excellent wasp killer. You can spray a nest overhead, with no worries about overspray. They can't fly, drop to the ground instantly, and die in seconds.

[Marie Dodge]

How do YOU wash them away in your gardens with detergents? Do you have a special high power sprayer made for such sprays? How do you kill them when they hit the ground? Step on them all? If you don't kill them once washed off they'll crawl and fly right back onto the plants. How do you manage to use enough pressure to dislodge them and not shread the leaves?

Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint

So you tried this Peppermint soap on both 2-spot-SpiderMites and Whitefly? Don't you remember I was told the other organic products would kill them dead and not one worked as claimed? Since all the other organic products failed, why would you think this one would work?

Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative

How did you wash them away? How many pounds of pressure did it take to dislodge your spider mites and whitefly? How did you wash off the nymphs without shredding the leaves due to pressure? Since you believe these organic potions work, please explain why all the others failed and how many more will be recommended as long as a person keeps trying them? Just wondering. :) From the website... this sounds like typical snake-oil:

Dr. Bronner?s is Celebrating Our 60th Anniversary! 5 Generations and 150 Years of Soapmaking Excellence Marking the 60th Anniversary of the company, *Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps* is pleased to announce that all classic liquid & bar soaps.........

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an organic site selling "magic soaps?"

[Pat Kiewicz]

Now you even have me believing you are in this for the trolling.

Lady, soap solution kills insects. Kills them fast. Soap kills earwigs lickety split, even though actual over-the-counter poisons barely slow them down.. You have to be sure to cover them with soap spray. I have personally murdered hosts of earwigs and aphids with soap. And I have accidentally killed a few bees with it. If someone says he's killed wasps with soap spray, I'm inclined to believe him.

The only caution is that soap can also damage plant leaves. And the solutionto *that* is to come back around and rinse the plants off after the pests are killed.

Cornell sez: Insecticidal soap products work by smothering soft bodied pests and disrupting their cuticle layer. In order to be effective, it is necessary to thoroughly coat the pest. After the soap dries on the plant surface, insects and mites will not pick up a lethal dose.

[R M. Watkin]

It is a liquid soap used for washing dishes in the U, K. It works for me that is all I can say. How it works I do not know. Hope this helps you.

Richard M. Watkin.

[jellybean stonerfish]

The soap makes the water wetter. It soaks into their skin and they die. I think maybe they breath through their skin and this makes them drown. I don't know what happens, just that the soap kills them, and they are dead. And you don't need special soap for aphids or white flies. Because my friend is worried about chemicals, we used Dr. Bronners on her iris's, and gave them a quick wipe between fingers. Also we misted her mint and rosemary, with now fear of using them in the future. The white fly infestation is now gone. Now, about the wasps. My job is construction. Many times, when working at someones house, I will encounter a wasp nest. Someone showed me the soapy water trick many years ago. Fill a pan or large bowl with soapy water. Fling it on the wasp nest. Done.

stonerfish