In 2003, when the ice storm took out much of northeast USA.
My neighbors didn't seem interested in sharing power. One
neighbor didn't want me to wire into her furnace. I'd been
installing furnaces for three years at that point, and knew
what I was doing. The other neighbor had a generator coming
from the fire department (he'd been a member). He planned to
use it to run electric space heater. I told him that was a
poor use of resources, but he didn't seem interersted.
One family did let me run their furnace, in the house.
Warmed up, nicely. They had lost the digital phone when they
lost power. The next day I went back, and found they had
gone to a public shelter, and I'd wasted my trip.
I'm not big on sharing power, any more.
It may be common practice, but frost isn't the issue. I have little to no dirt
on a property and was thinking about relocating a 500 gal propane tank a little
farther away from the house mostly for visual reasons, but also to make winter
deliveries up a frequently icy drive easier.
I was thinking I'd have to have some expensive rock trenching done, but the
local propane supplier said we could also just mound dirt over the line. The
requirement is to protect from casual abrasion.
As to abrasion. I'd be tempted to put PVC or Pex over the
propane line, for improved shielding. It's a bit of a pain
to trace propane or other gas leaks. Seeing as how it's
working for you, that's good.
Put the tank closer for the delivery guy is very
considerate. Especailly when you call for fill in the winter
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:07:27 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
Exposed, yes, burried no. Frost heaving can fracture the line if not
properly installed. Frost can move the ground 2 to 4 inches in some
cases, but not a consistant move, someplaces it moves less than an
inch, other places much more. Frost is nasty that way!
The bush doctrine WE FIGHT THEM THERE SO WE DONT HAVE TO FIGHT THEM
Well after the NEXT major attack on US soil:(
It will get changed too:
Bring the military back from peaceful areas of the world like japan
and germany, and put them to work HERE for stuff like border security.
our country is broke having given away its wealth buying energy for a
generation, and shipping our manufacturing base and even phone support
we can no longer afford to be the worlds cop......
now its time to protect ourselves.
Airport security and TSA is all about making us feel safe, not about
a couple terrorists with a SAM can take out us airliners at any time.
having a generator or two, sopme shelf stable food, drinkable water,
etc is survivalism its just good common sense........
My family is using minimum buried lines from New Hampshire out to
Southern California and has been for many years. Not one of my five
sisters not my brother has had a line broken by frost damage. My
church operates summer camps from the mountains of North West Maryland
to the sea coast of the Carolinas. None of those underground propane
lines has ever had frost damage. No that is not a complete geographic
sample of the US but I have not heard of buried gas lines being frost
damaged. I don't see the problem.
There are a number of factual errors in your posting. Fuel gas lines
do not have to be below the frost line. Under the miss utility laws
of most states the liability is all with the person doing the digging
who disturbs an existing line. We have had a number of propane
installs done and a single central tank has always worked out cheaper
in the long run. When we installed the generator at my firehouse the
cost of the gas line was much cheaper than the additional cost of a
diesel generator even though that was a natural gas and propane
combination unit that needed a gas line run from the street as well as
from the propane tank.
The point is that your own experience; or mine for that matter; will
not, necessarily extrapolate well to another installation in another
A fellow from Alaska got involved with a post about using similar
fuels for heating and diesel engines along with jet fuel and
kerosene for cross purposes. He said they brought fuel in by barge
and didn't screw around with having too many categories of fuels.
I wish one of our Alaskan friends would speak up and tell us all
what will work.
Whenever there is some sort of disaster, entrepreneurs will load up
trucks with all sorts of supplies to sell in the affected area but
that was in the past. Now capitalists are charged with the crime of
price gouging and often have their property confiscated by government
types with guns. I thought it would be interesting to open a warehouse
down in Florida well in advance of hurricane season and advertise things
like batteries, generators, chain saws, etc at three times the going
rate. No one would buy any until there was a disaster and when
government types showed up to accuse you of price gouging, you can point
out that your prices have been the same for months, what's the problem?
Gas station owners don't make any money off the gas even when the
power is on. I've heard on more than one occasion that only a few
cents per gallon goes to the store owner. Out of that they have to pay
a licensing fee to the oil company, upkeep on the pumps, etc...
Why the hell should they fork out money for a generator just so the
big oil company can rake in more money?
You have gas stations that only sell gas and oil? We sure don't have
any of those here in NC. There is a profit margin on gas but it's
generally pretty small. Store sales profit margin is 50% or higher.
I've never seen a place that was 100% gas and oil only. Even the most
basic gas station has a stand-up cooler with overpriced bottles of
soda next to the cash register, and a rack of smokes.
Judging by the looks of those places, though, I would say you're
making a pretty safe assumption. Dirty, run-down, old pumps, potholes
in the lot... They're not making any money, or they'd make
Why do they stay in business? Sheer stupidity, possibly. Who knows?
Lots of people will continue to forge ahead with a failing business
long after it's clear that there's no future.
Some of the places are owned by the fuel distributors, though. I know
of two here locally that have signs proclaiming that they're owned by
such-and-such oil company... That's called double-dipping. Not only do
they get the distributor's cut, they also get the gas station's cut.
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