We have just started framing on our home and the framer indicates the slab is not square on the corners. Not too bad, but still 1.5" out of square in 2 places. The framer has the bottom plate (2x4) hanging off the slab in a few places. He doesn't seem too worried .... should I be?
Is this common or just shoddy work on the concrete crew? Any recommendations on what to do ... or let me know if this is normal course and I should do nothing.
Thanks.
It is certainly common for masons to make things out of square. Somewhat shoddy, but it happens all the time. Sometimes I think masons should frame a house every few years just to get a taste of what it's like to build on an out of square foundation.
Hanging plates is a common way to deal with out of squareness. That can influence how the exterior finishes, but if it's a slab, it's not too big a deal. I recommend you do nothing.
Thanks for the quick response - I agree, have the mason's frame a house just to get a taste :) I appreciate the response.
I agree. It's not that big of a deal. when you say out of square 1.5", I assume you mean one diagonal is 3" longer than the other? if it's 1.5" then it's really only 3/4" out which is pretty damn good.
On the rectangular portion of a slab, we used the "X" measurement method to determine squareness. Within 1/8" was considered good. 1/2" or more was considered shoddy work.
The soil level next to the bad corners and sides, along with the moisture level, and material used to cover the house, can be a problem in the future. Won't manifest itself for sometime. There are cosmetic repairs for severe out of square concrete slabs.
Actually - what I meant by 1.5" is that the bottom plate (2x4 lumber) is hanging off the concrete by ~1.5". i.e, on one exterior wall, at one corner the bottom plate is flush with the concrete slab .... but at the Other end the bottom plate hangs off the outside roughly 1/5". Granted this wall is long - say about 25' ... but this seems shoddy and I am not happy with the concrete crew. Just don't know what if anything needs to be done?!
I am thinking nothing, but will talk to the concrete guy and express my dissatisfaction - he works on referrals only and my word of mouth isn't going to be that great. Other than this item - the garage floor has about a 2' circular area that is low - so water stands in that spot about 1" deep - its right by the garage door - so wondering if they can sand down the area so that spot will drain outside??
Actually - what I meant by 1.5" is that the bottom plate (2x4 lumber) is hanging off the concrete by ~1.5". i.e, on one exterior wall, at one corner the bottom plate is flush with the concrete slab .... but at the Other end the bottom plate hangs off the outside roughly 1.5". Granted this wall is long - say about 25' ... but this seems shoddy and I am not happy with the concrete crew. Just don't know what if anything needs to be done?!
I am thinking nothing, but will talk to the concrete guy and express my dissatisfaction - he works on referrals only and my word of mouth isn't going to be that great. Other than this item - the garage floor has about a 2' circular area that is low - so water stands in that spot about 1" deep - its right by the garage door - so wondering if they can sand down the area so that spot will drain outside??
Good post. Without knowing the section, it's irresponsible to say something is or isn't OK. Further, a 1.5" overhang of a 3.5" bottom plate leaves the center of the wall/plate only 1/4" from the edge of concrete. I wouldn't do that. (Assuming cast in place anchors, what do the anchor bolt-plate connections look like?)
I would consider the repercussions of following the concrete with the framing, before making a snap judgment. Given the other issues already noted, I'd also be on the lookout for other potential problems with the concrete work. It sounds like a questionable job. Fools rush in.....
Framers are usually pretty accurate as they need to cut in a roof based on that beginning; but if I were involved I would sure want to double check who's right.
As has been stated, the anchor bolts can't be right or code compliant depending on where you are. Is there a reason the framer can't split the difference and get that wall sitting on the concrete a little better? (In a bit to far at one end and out less on the other) ______________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . . DanG (remove the sevens) snipped-for-privacy@7cox.net
How close to the ground is this plate that is hanging over? Subject to splash? I can assume it's CCA or whatever they call it nowadays.
yeah, I agree that hanging a 2x4 by 1.5" is getting iffy. But it depends on what you are setting on it. A one story ranch in arizona is probably fine, but a three story house in the cascade mountains is probably not going to be fine.. I will say again that out of square foundations are quite common. If you start hiring masons and expect that they will get their slabs to within 1/8" of square, you're dreaming. A lot of that is driven by cost. Did you pay for a Yugo or did you pay for a BMW? . Time is money, and getting things right on the nuts takes time. If the framers where forming the slab, they'd take their time, because they would know from experience that a few extra minutes getting started off on the right foot will be made up 10 times over when it comes time to frame on it. But masons, like most subcontractors, develop tunnel vision and fail to see beyond their part in a project.
What do you do about it? What is your involvement in the project? are you serving as general or do you have a general? What kind of building is it? Is it already too late? Houses can be built out of square, and depending on the finish materials, noone will know but maybe the sheetrockers. Or you could split the difference, hanging plates less and allowing the house to be somewhat out of square. It all depends on what you are building.
I have never seen a slab WITHOUT a birdbath or two. However, a 1" deep puddle in 2 feet sounds pretty bad. Can you see it when it isn't filled with water?
that's pretty bad... I wouldn't think that would be expectable, is the framer good buddies with the mason? from a structural standpoint, I doubt you would ever have any problems or issues with the overhang. maybe flash the bottom with aluminum if bugs or moisture are a major concern
if they are cast in place, they would be 1 3/4 from the edge of concrete & miss the center of the 2x4. not that big of a problem IMO. simply because of all the other tie in points
Say they are 1-3/4 from the edge. The offset 2x4 only has 2" sitting on the slab. 2-1.75=0.25, so center of anchor is only 1/4" into the plate, and anchor diameter is typically 1/2"...you do the math there's likely no meat left AT ALL on the plate.
I wouldn't do it, even if it is close to a perpendicular wall that's well bolted. If you want to come up with rationalizations for accepting substandard work, you don't have to work very hard. We all know the top ten. The trickier thing is getting it done right, or making the best alternative arrangements when things go wrong.
What if the place in question was replaced with 2X6's? Now would be the cheapest time to change them out.
Thanks for all the posts so far ... a bit more information for those that are asking:
- I am the homeowner and the general contractor
- The place in question with the plate sticking out is well off the ground (say 10") and water getting in or under the bottom plate shouldn't be an issue - there will be a stone wall on the exterior - so no one will notice from the outside. From the inside of this garage wall, that wall sits on a 6" curb - so its quite obvious from the inside of the garage, but I am not worried about cosmetics in the garage.
- The exterior wall just went up Friday, so its not too late to change it - I am going to go out and measure again. I like the idea of the 2x6 on this wall if needed to get more "meat" on the slab.
- This wall is supporting a 2 story structure on a pretty flat lot in NE Oklahoma.
- As far as the 1" deep puddle in the garage - its not too noticeable when not full of water. The concrete guy indicates he can rough up the area and patch it, but with the car traffic going over it - I am not confident it won't crack in the future.
- The concrete guy is a reputable company and *normally* does good work. I have seen some of his work and family members have used him prevously...so I *think* these 2 issues were a bit sloppy, but the job as a whole I think has been excellent.
Thanks agai> We have just started framing on our home and the framer indicates the
That would be one approach...though the "nobody will see it" excuse would have to be used. I don't like it because the mistake invites weathering. Another (safer) approach might be, "Frame it crooked". Depending on the flooring, and level of finish carpentry expected, that might not be a bad solution.
In another post, the OP reveals he's the homeowner and "GC", so who knows how straight the rest of the stuff is going to be? ...every room may be a rhomboid by the time it's finished.
I would check plumbing penetrations to make sure they weren't moved during the pour.
--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----
Bearing walls on homes are at the perimeter of the concrete. The easiest way to tell if this is a bearing wall is the look at the roof (on the plans if the roof hasn't been built yet). If the slope of the roof comes down on the wall that is hanging over, then it's a bearing wall. 1.5" isn't bad and, structurally speaking, it's not something to be worried about but watch what the framers are doing. By the way, make sure the bottom plates (sill plates) are pressure treated and strapped AND bolted down. It's code (IBC 2003).
Also, watch the siding in the location where it hangs over. This is and exposed area of framing that can easily become an access point for mice and bugs. The pressure treating may kill a mouse but only after several days. A lot of chewing could be done in that amount of time. A good pest control service agreement should also help.
I am currently studying to become a carpenter. We just finished the section on foundations and slabs. As part of the program, we were told that as much as a 1" overhang is OK, but if it is more than that, to consider getting it fixed. The building code here, Ontario, specifies a minimum of
38mm, (1 1/2") of support. If you are using 2x4s, you have 3 1/2", less your 1 1/2" overhang, so there is still 2" of support.Since the walls are now up, you don't have a lot of choice, but fortunately you are working with a slab. It should be fairly easy to dig out to the bottom of the slab, along that one section, drill in some concrete screws, left partway out, layout a new form, and fill the void. If it is only 1
1/2" at the widest location, then depending on the length you can probably get away with hand mixing a couple bags of cement/agregate/water and fill the void yourself.As far as it being shoddy work by the construction crew, I would direct the issue to whomever laid out the concrete framing. It either was not located in the correct place to start with, or there was not enough reinforcing and the forms moved before or during the pour.
Carolyn
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