Woodcraft & Festool Nepotism

I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their Festool stock rises. I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster... http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153339/bora-angle-master-miter-duplicator.aspx
They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with this... http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494370/miterfast-angle-transfer-device.aspx
I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of the Festool.
I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool.
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-MIKE-

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On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:10:33 AM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

No coincidence at all. While there is no doubt as to the great quality of Festool products, they have turned out to be a winner for Woodcraft as well . Their sky high prices for their tools are also reflective of the sky hig h margins that WC enjoys when selling those products.
Years ago when they got in bed with them, I had a pretty good friend that m anaged our local store. He wasn't thrilled about the arrangement that Fest ool wanted, which was a minimum amount of product in the store, a minimum a mount of shelf space, and a non negotiable price for their products. In ot her words, Festool dictated all the terms of the relationship.
The attraction for the WC franchise owners were that they all got a better price on Festool products than an average store or small chain (better marg ins), and with price protection they never had to worry about anyone's sale s, or the biggest threat to the brick and mortar retailer, internet pricing .
I think they were smart to make that move for themselves, and in reality, i t never hurt anyone like me. I have always been a fiend for utility value of a tool, probably reflective of over thirty years of self employment. Bu t sometime back it seems that WC realized that they were no longer catering to professionals. This was pointed out to me when my buddy pointed out to me I NEVER bought tools or consumables from him. I only went to the store to purchase incidentals like pattern bits for my router, a few odds tool b its, etc.
No professionals I work with, NONE, shop at WC. Like me, they consider it an upscale hobby store that caters with folks with a lot of free time. And I have only seen Festool tools on the job two times in the last 20 or so y ears; their Rotex sander used for its dust collecting ability, and their 12 V drill that was favored by a cabinet installer I knew. The only two guys I know that use Festool professionally at this point are Karl and Leon, and they get their money's worth.
I think that WC's current selection of tools is reflective of the client th ey wish to serve, the well heeled hobbyist that just enjoys owning a fine t ool.
Robert
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On Monday, December 22, 2014 11:40:33 AM UTC-6, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

or so years;
I visited a friend at Thanksgiving having kitchen cabinets installed at his house. And more of his kitchen worked over such as the floor and walls. The people doing the work left a Festool guide rail at the jobsite. The 14 00 mm rail. So I am convinced professional carpenters do use Festool tools .
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On 12/22/14 3:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

I think you need to re-read his post. He didn't say professional didn't use Festool. He said he didn't know of any that shop at Woodcraft. He then went on to say that two professionals (he knows and respects, BTW) both use Festool.
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FYI - one swallow doesn't make a summer. You should only be convinced that "one carpenter" uses festool tools; the adjective "professional" has no evidence.
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On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 21:56:51 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

I would make the leap that the person installing the cabinets for the friend was doing the work for money, therefore a "professional".
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I believe you have hit the nail on the head. I do however think you can still buy the common and less expensive brands of power tools through WC but in many cases you have to order them. Probably from the WC central ware house. I think it would be a hard sell on Festool if there were several alternatives readily available on the shelves. I'll add that had I not first bought the Domino and the Festool dust extractor I may to this day might not own any Festool tools. That might be the case for Karl too. But once I experienced the quality and time saving features, adding sanders, a drill, a saw, a work bench and assorted clamps and tracks was not quite so difficult to swallow. I absolutely understand why contractors like yourself don't use Festool. You provide, share, and often loose sight of your tools on a job site. Since Karl and I are basically the only ones that touch our Festools we don't so much fear some one breaking the tool or that tool walking away.
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On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:11:08 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Tough to be CPO and Amazon when it comes to online sales, though. And when CPO has one of their seasonal sales, they are almost impossible to beat.

There is no doubt about the quality of the Festool products. And let's fac e it, if they didn't deliver in spades, they couldn't sell their products a t those prices. The market wouldn't bear it.


And that is a huge consideration. I used to buy only top line tools, but b etween tools being abused, neglected, left out to be stolen, stolen by empl oyees, carelessly misused and broken, left on job sites, stolen from my tru ck or company trucks by break ins, pawned by employees, I quit. I buy enou gh tool to get the job done these days as I know I might have said tool 2 t o 3 years, or 2 to 3 days.
Things are different on the job site as well. When I started, you saved yo ur money and bought tools for your own use. You bought a good saw, a good drill, a sander, router and all the other tools you needed on the road to b eing a professional woodworker. You invested your own money into yourself, and by doing so showed your commitment to your craft. Your level of commit ment and self investment determined not only how seriously you were taken o n the job, but how much money you made.
No longer so. Most employees won't buy any tools more than $100. If they do, they leave them at home so they don't suffer the fate described above, and they only see the light of day on a moon light job they contract. Thei r tools are valuable, mine are not.
When I had employees, I bought saws, drills, nailers, compressors, paint ma chines, saw blades, extension cords, ladders, and on an on. Now I use almo st all sub contractors, and although I will lend a tool to some of them, th ey are required to have all the tools needed to complete the job. If I had $700 tied up in a drill, I doubt I would leave it on the job for anyone of them to use, though.
I remember when I changed my business model and got rid of almost all emplo yees. The tax prep folks I used called me after the first year and quizzed me abo ut my "consumable" tools and equipment and why they had dropped by about 90 %. I remember telling them, "it's easy. I just quit buying San Antonio's work force new tools".
Robert
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If both prices were not true ( Bora: 59.90€ y Festool: 160€) they would seem addressed to naive. people.
Look at (I'm sorry, but it is in French)
http://www.smartool.fr/fr/produits-bricolage/outillage-main/copieur-dangles-regles-coulissantes-smartool
this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90€. You could even do it yourself, it's not necessary to feed the blood suckers!!!
Good luck,
GD


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On 1/17/15 4:14 AM, G.Dubois wrote: > >
> >> I've noticed a trend at Woodcraft of diminishing selection as their >> Festool stock rises. >> I've been looking for a Bora MiterMaster... >> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/153339/bora-angle-master-miter-duplicator.aspx
>> >> >> They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with this... >> http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/494370/miterfast-angle-transfer-device.aspx
>> >> >> I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be >> nice to still have the choice considering the Bora is 1/3 the price of >> the Festool. >> >> I would consider it coincidence if it weren't for the lot of other >> branded tools that have suspiciously disappeared from the Woodcraft >> shelves a short time after getting in bed with Festool. >>

The tool you linked to isn't the same thing. The two tools I showed automatically bisect the angle giving you an adjustment point for the miter saw without having to measure it or divide the full angle in half.
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No, the sides of the tool being graduated, it can always keep the shape of a kipe (or deltoid )
and its diagonals are always bisectors of angles issued of the intersection o equal sides.
It is possible to materialize diagonals with a simple rule or even with the back of saws, the
amount of the difference with your tool being 50$ or 150$ it is worth.
GD
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On 1/20/15 5:25 AM, G.Dubois wrote:

Have a good day.
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-MIKE-

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Thank you, and you too
GD

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On Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:47:48 -0600, -MIKE-

Doesn't this tool at 5.97 do the same thing? plus side is no heart attack if lost somewhere.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Johnson-Protractor-Angle-Locator-1849-0000/204513502
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OFWW wrote:

If you add an "extender" to it, I would more confidence with it. I don't trust my ability to extend a 1" line to 24", accurately (try it and see). Any error you make will be proportional to (i.e. multiplied by) the number of inches you wish to extend the 1" line. Just ask Lew. He's good with this stuff!
Bill
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On 2/1/15 1:34 AM, OFWW wrote:

They stopped carrying them, around the time Festool came out with

I have no doubt the Festool is a better product, however it would be

this angle measurer has the same functionality and it costs just 9.90€.

I have 2 of those and while they do show a measurement for a bisected angle (if you can actually read those tiny lines and numbers) you still have to transfer that measurement (did I mention how tiny those lines are?) to your saw.
And as Bill mentioned, the legs on that little protractor are just too short to be of any use. It does an ok job of measuring the angle on an already cut piece of wood, but that's about it. Probably 85% of wall corners I've ever trimmed are not straight enough at the corners for that little protractor to be of any use. Because of corner bead and taping, wall corners always have at least 2 to 4" inches on each side where they bow out. In order for a protractor to be useful, the legs have to bridge that section to read the true angle at which the walls intersect, not the bowing of the last few inches.
The real point in all of this that seems to be getting lost here, and what really sets the Bora and Festool apart from every other angle finder, is the center line on each that allows you to just line up your saw and cut. There's no transferring a measurement. Heck, there's no reading a measurement. The angle reading is actually irrelevant. You place the tool on the wall (or whatever), tighten the knob, place it on the saw, line up the blade with the bisection line, then cut. There's no room for error.
I used the Bora Angle Master on my last crown job and it worked as advertized. It saved a lot of time and was very accurate. There are some design quirks that I would prefer be different but those are just my preferences.
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