WJ Book

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You or the circulation department/consultant are relying on the following 1. I get this material that I never requested 2. I maybe like it but would never have ordered/need it 3. Jeesh I hate to keep something I sorta like with out paying for it, even if they say keep it 4 I don't have time to go to the PO to ship it back, so I'll keep it 5. I still kinda feel guilty ....hmm now I'm pissed
Don't send something of measurable value without permission of the receiver
Only my opinion Joey

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wrote:
[snipperectomy]

Joey, I couldn't agree more. In a roundabout way, it's an invasion of some sort. It's right up there with that call from a telemarketer. That neighbour's dog doing his business on MY lawn.
I got pissed off a couple of days ago when I paid money to go see a movie (Hitchhikers Guide To the Galaxy..thought it was just GREAT). Starting time was 7:30. 7:45 they were STILL running commercials for this, that, and the other. WTF?? That is using time *I* paid for.
PS..when a telemarketer calls, I always ask for his/her home-phone number so I can call them back....or I answer in a language I make up as I go along.
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Robatoy wrote:

I just lay the phone down and let 'em talk until they finally figure out there's no response...at least they're bothering one other poor soul for just a few less minutes... :)
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The anger, as I read the posts, sprang from the fact that WJ sent invoices for the "no obligation" book after it was sent.
If you're sending people a free gift, great. But don't bill them for it later. Miss Manners will back me up.
djb
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On Wed, 25 May 2005 20:12:51 -0600, Dave Balderstone

This is my gripe too. If any of the numerous invoices I've received had an option that said: "I'm not returning this unsolicited book, not paying for it and want you to stop sending me these invoices"; I'd have checked it and sent the invoice back.
The way I feel now, I'll never resubscribe to your magazine because your invoices are misleading as they try and give the impression that our only options are "PAY" or "RETURN IT". I hope your book business makes up for your lost subscribers.
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not returning this unsolicited book, not paying for it and want you to stop sending me these invoices"; I'd have checked it and sent the invoice back.<< They did not include that option because they were not invoices.
A.J.
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I'd be interested in seeing a scan of the alleged 'Invoice' or the alleged 'Not An Invoice'. Any takers?
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Agree. I sent mine back. I don't recall the wording, but it sure had the 'look and feel" of a bill. Someone has to have one.
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You could do what I do - mail it back. No check, no check mark, certainly no book, just an envelope full of their crap and whatever other daily junk mail I can fit in it. In fact, one of my favorite hobbies is mailing junk mail back to the sender in their prepaid envelopes. It doesn't help reduce the junkmail, the senders are too stupid to get the hint, but it does give me a satisfied feeling. For a second or two.
-- Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com/woodshop
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LOL, Of all the mail out solicitations, American Express simply does not get it. I bet I have mailed back at least 75 blank applications to them this year alone with the words Remove from Mailing List. I get 3 to 4 per week from them alone.
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Pounds on Wood wrote:

It didn't come with a prepaid envelope, and I wasn't going to waste my $0.37.
Glen
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Rob, I appreciate that you've hit the group to explain your business practices. I was a respondent in the last thread on this topic and for the most part have no problem with what you're doing. I, however, got a bill and no book. From the repeated threads on this topic, I knew what was going on so I just round filed the bill and laughed at it. If I get repeated bills, it will aggravate me though.
I've been involved professionally in this type of "negative solicitation" practice and have found that it may make sense economically to do it this way, but it has never made sense from a customer relations standpoint. You always end up making people angry at you over the littlest things. Good will is hard to come by in a business and a lot easier to lose over these kind of practice.
Just my 2 cents
Gary in KC
P.S. My subscription is safe - I've always enjoyed your magazine.

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<<I've been involved professionally in this type of "negative solicitation" practice and have found that it may make sense economically to do it this way, but it has never made sense from a customer relations standpoint. You always end up making people angry at you over the littlest things. Good will is hard to come by in a business and a lot easier to lose over these kind of practice.>>
I'm not defending the practice of sending unsolicited merchandise and then invoicing for it. However, this is not the only action that can cause people to be come "angry over the littlest things." There are some people are going to get angry no matter what you do. (It is conceivable that somewhere in this world you could even find somebody who would complain about the customer service from Lee Valley. <g>) There's just no pleasing those folks so it's best not to become overly concerned about them.
Lee
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Mr. Johnstone,
I am a subscriber to Woodworkers Journal. It was the first WW magazine that I subscribed to, I like it and I intend to continue receiving it.
I, too, received the "free" book. I didn't ask for the book, I don't want to participate in the program and I don't want to go through the process of sending it back.
I am probably not the oldest reader here, but I am far from the youngest, therefore I know:
1. The technique used by your company to market this book is common practice by many. 2. I am under no obligation to reurn the book nor to pay for it. 3. Multiple requests for payment should not be taken personally, they are just the result of over zealous programing.
The hard part for me is receiving multiple requests for payment. The rational part of me knows that this is just a computer generated technique to generate additional revenue, however, on another level, it feels as if you are attacking my name and reputation. I pay all my bills on time and I get heartily pissed off when someone (man or machine) claims I don't. If the book offer was as noble as you described, you would have sent me ONE bill period. If I didn't respond, you would let go and move on.
I acknowledge that, following a phone call to your offices, the billing has stopped. (At least I think so.) The bad feeling remains and is shared by others as evidenced by the shear number of posts on this topic.
I wish you success with your magazine, and your book club too. I sincerely hope you modify your marketing techniques, however, to preserve to respect my woodworkers have for your products.
Respectfully,
Bill Leonhardt
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<snip>
Well. my two cents also -
For all those who are bitching - lighten up. I defend your right to bitch but really! Have none of you ever heard of marketing? They deal in statistics and percentages. Mail out 10,000 books like this - you'll get some back, some will be kept and SOME will get paid for. That's the way it works. That's the way it has ALWAYS worked. AND in spite of the bitching, that's the way it will continue to work. Why? BECAUSE THE MARKETING METHOD WORKS AND THEY MAKE MONEY!
It was stated that they are a "for profit" business.
I kept the book - IMHO it was so-so - not worth buying but it was free. I've received two invoices since - guess what - I threw them out.
To those who worry that their credit rating will be destroyed..... I'd worry about the sky falling first - that could be dangerous.
As far as different price levels for renewals - respectfully, what world have you been living in? I have heard this same complaint, AND have made it myself for the last 60 years. There were times when I found it easier to cancel my current subscription to a magazine and get a refund and then re-up at a lower rate than.
I have often had the impression that different areas of publishing don't talk to each other.
Anyhow, as stated, that's *MY* two cents worth.
Keep sending out the free books boys - love freebies!!!!
Vic
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Well, they have apparently sold you that the book is free if you do not want to pay for it but NOTHING in life is free. SOME ONE pays for those books that are not returned and not paid for. The next book you buy will help pay for that book that you did not return and did not pay for.
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Are you suggesting he send this one back to help hold down the cost of books for the rest of the woodworking community as well as his future books? Surely you jest. I'm as much of a believer in TANSTAAFL as the next guy, but that doesn't make it an absolute truth. You've got to stretch pretty far to consider this not free.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

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wrote:

Absolutely not. Gong with the theme of many not liking this approach to marketing, of the thousands of books that get tossed and not paid for, those that do buy from that company end up paying for that book. It would be far cheaper on those buying the books if the publisher sent out a letter with a request to review and buy the book.
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Maybe, maybe not. I don't think you or I have the data to know this -- at least I don't. Most printing of which I am aware has a fairly large fixed cost and fairly small variable cost. It's a trivial exercise to create two different scenarios with fixed versus variable costs, response rates to a promotion like they did versus response to one like you propose, with one scenario showing the approach you use to create lower cost books for those who subscribe, and another scenario to show the approach they used to end up with lower cost books for subscribers.
But it is still free to those who got it and didn't pay.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

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<snip>

There are social costs. Besides disposal, the dealing with the invoices, and the wrangling over the real motivations behind the marketers, this whole episode disrupts the calm discourse and friendly conversation which normally occurs here on the wReck. ;-)
I mean, for example, this whole discussion distracts me from learning the intricate details of wiring my shop for 220V.
Patriarch
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