Trouble setting up new table saw

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I do recall them. I don't recall you though. Perhaps you went by another moniker? As you "recall", it wasn't about flaming newbies for asking questions or looking for help - jumping all over their ass for wanting to make the most of their new table saw.
Back then the demigod who ran around the group picking on people was Bennett Leeds (we used to go by real names back in '95). Disagree with Mr. Leeds and you had a flame buddy for life. Today it's....

Really. And all of this has what to do with the topic of this thread?
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"Ed Bennett" wrote in message

LOL ... I guess we'll just have to ask Galileo, or his modern incarnation. :)
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wrote:

LOL. Ed, please tell me this is a troll. Or do you actually feel that anyone who does not share your opinion on this matter is ignorant?

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Sorry Frank, you misunderstood. It's a statement about how Galileo was treated for having innovative ideas. It's not about Galileo's (or anybody elses) opinion of those who mistreated him.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
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Be very careful, Frank ... particularly if you value the sanctity of your personal e-mail inbox. Ignoring the troll, as Leon wisely advised, is the best bet.
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wrote:

So what did you mean Ed? You used the statement in an analogous manner. Are you like Galileo with the innovative ideas and those who don't accept those ideas are" piously ignorant"?
Frank

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The analogy is really aimed and encouraging people to examine the facts and use their intelligence to judge the merits of proper alignment. It was also intended to discourage people from ignoring the facts, dispensing with their intellect and arguing "just make sawdust". I thought it was a particularly keen analogy to answer swingman's accusation that I was being pious and holier than thou. That was it's primary purpose.
However, I don't mind attributing the role of Galileo with those who believe that they can improve the performance of their machinery (and subsequently the quality of their woodworking) with proper alignment. I wouldn't want to have the role of the Roman authorities attributed to me. I wouldn't want to be in the position of ridiculing and persecuting the modern Galileos. So, I think each person needs to examine their own attitude and determine if they like the role that they have chosen to play.
That said...With regard to your own saw of 13 years, you said: "I never checked the saw for alignment that [first] day or ever." You also indicate that you believe that precise alignment is a waste of time. In your recommendation to Dan, you said "...if it were mine and I were within .016" with a dead on 90, I'd lock it down and cut wood." (although I can't seem to get you to now say if you think it was a waste of time for Dan to get this resolved). You include yourself in the group of those who think that alignment is unimportant. But, since you don't actually know the current state of your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be so confident in your assertion. Maybe your saw is (by sheer luck) well aligned. Maybe it isn't and you just don't recognize the problems.
I don't doubt that you want to know which part I think you play in the analogy. I could tell you what I think based on the evidence I've seen (reviewed above for your convenience). But, this really is a question that you need to answer for yourself. You need to play the part that you believe is right, argue it's merits, and hope that time doesn't treat you as badly as it did the Roman authorities. It's not for me to tell you which role to play. I recognize that the Galileo role is a lonely one with many trials and tribulations ;-). But, I choose it and argue it's merits becaue I believe that it is right. By contrast, the Roman role is grounded in piety ("we're not wood machinists") and enjoys relative ease in the consensus of many.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
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well, swing, without a doubt Ed does enjoy a long winded post, and he's not shy about putting his product up front and center.
he even can be a bit self righteous. but he 'aint generally an out and out asshole, which is more than I can say for you.
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Real classy there, bridger ... another heard from who can pretend to be insulted while doing the insulting. You guys be sure to keep the pretense up by e-mailing each other, you hear?
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wrote:
<snipped some personal anecdotal information with no offense intended>

Well, I didn't see that (flame fest). I saw opinions offered about whether it was necessary to align a saw to within a few thousandths or if you could do work that was just as good at .016" 45 degree alignment. If the OP was not interested in opinions that might vary significantly, and would not find that helpful he probably should have contacted you directly rather than posting on a usenet forum or at least ignored the opposing opinions.
Obviously, his opinion is that you* have* to align a saw to a "gnat's ass", and I'm happy your were able to help him. Those who don't share that opinion and offer an alternative "of just cut some wood" are not engaging in a "flame fest" IMHO.
In addition to being

ranting and raving? A little touchy are we. Need to work on that sense of humor.

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste of time.
Frank
El

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Perhaps the various eruptions escaped your notice; re-read the thread when you finish here.

There were a number of solutions and opinions offered. I thought that your initial ideas were pretty darn good. If I had determined that Dan was doing everything correctly and still getting the wrong results, I would likely have deferred to some of the things that you had mentioned.
Dan offered very polite answers to all the alternative opinions. You probably just didn't notice it when he explained why it wasn't acceptable for him to ignore the situation. Or, perhaps you just weren't willing to accept the idea that he didn't share your opinion.

The "gnat's ass" comment wasn't his words. It's the sort of derogatory term used by what you have pretty much referred to as "sharing an alternative opinion". When people use disparaging, critical, insulting, offensive, deprecating, or belittling terms I pretty much call it a flame fest. There was an effort made to discredit those who did not share this particular opinion.
It's not that an alternative was offered, it's that it was repeatedly offered with ever increasing fervor even after Dan had politely dismissed it. Before long, the person who would spend $2000 on a table saw and expect it to work properly was being represented as an idiot and an alignment tool is the biggest waste of time for the anal woodworker. You tell me, in your honest opinion; wouldn't that make you feel a bit steamed?

I would have said "frothing at the mouth" but "ranting and raving" fits the medium better. This reminds me of a proverb:
"Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows and death, so is the man who deceives his neighbor, and says, "Was I not joking?" "
The "sense of humor" thing is wearing a bit thin, don't you think? Let's admit it, I got your collective dander up a bit when I said: "As you have now discovered, the situation isn't quite as tolerable as some have said." I can see how this sort of statement can be threatening to someone who would take it as commentary on the quality of their woodworking. I assure you it was not meant in such a manner. But, as I have already mentioned, responding as if threatened is very revealing.

Based on what Maxwell said, and numerous email messages received, I'd have to say that this opinion has little if any merit. Think about the logic of Dan's situation. This particular alignment is pretty much a one time event. If it takes him a week to get it right (and it only took one evening), then he can count on having accurate bevel cuts forever on that saw. If he ignores it and "just makes sawdust" (as you and swingman have so exasperatingly recommended), then he will need to rework every single bevel cut he makes on that saw in order to obtain tight joints. Now, in your honest opinion, which is the bigger waste of time?
Either way, the woodworking is going to be the same. Both methods will end up producing high quality joints. But, one is clearly more time intensive than the other. There is some merit to futzing around with the "OCD measurements".
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
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wrote:

I did. Before I posted. It was initially and remains my "opinion" that it was not a flame fest.

I care not if he or you or anyone in this group shares my opinion. That's what opinions are all about.

????? Derogatory term? What planet are you from?

Might, if that was what had happened. Who exactly called him an idot or expressed that his position on the matter was because of ignorance? And I don't thin an alignment tool was mentioned until long after his problem was essentially solved to his satisfaction.

Responding as if threatened? LOL.

That statement pretty much sums up who is intolerant of the opinions of others.
Think about

Made twelve ogive corner feet this morning, didn't rework a one. But that's not the point. I don't care if he aligns it every week until the end of time. That's his business. And those that don't and don't consider it necessary have a perfect right to their opinion and to express that opinion when a thread starts on the subject. If he,or you don't believe that then just killfile the lot of us.
Frank

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"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Wish like hell I could say that!
I've been working on 20, hard maple, kitchen drawers for a new kitchen job for what seems like weeks (actually just days, but too many of them at this point) ... basically sick and tired of being sick and tired, of filling and sanding.
That's why I keep coming in from the shop and wasting time ... to get some comic relief between grits. :)
One of the jig fingers apparently, and mysteriously with no signs of doing so to this day, moved/slipped at some point in the middle of a "production run" of 40 tail boards and I've been "magicing" the results on about half the drawers ever since.
The second time the D4 has done that on a run of drawers ... too bad there's no effective way to "align" that tool to the elusive "gnat's ass" and have it stay that way.
Nonetheless, a perfect example of the contention of how "misalignment" can cause hours of extra work ... a concept I've certainly never argued with, having experienced it too painfully myself.
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Me too, but with those sliding tapered dovetails on that omnijig. Theoretically if you start both your male and female cuts at exactly the same place on the taper jig, they should slide together and snug up just fine. But with that grandbaby on the way and a great need to finish a cradle in time to let the solvent fumes fully evaporate, I struggled for several days trying to get the fit right. Finally got it but not sure how, so reluctant to go there again.
Seems like a real good way to do that cross grain assembly without offending the cross grain glue up gods, wish I could get the hang of it.
Frank
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"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Exercising the theory behind reproducing identical/matching parts, in a practical and efficient manner, in a medium that moves, _is_ the definition of fru$tration.
... but when you do get lucky, it feels so good. :)
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You are free to believe whatever you like. I'd bet that Dan felt a bit singed around the edges; at which point you questioned his ability to make friends. Does that help put things in perspective?

Which is why you keep repeating it over and over, right?

Perhaps it's been a while since you've engaged in polite conversation.

Apparently you didn't read the thread. Or maybe your news server doesn't contain all the messages. For some reason I had trouble using Google to read certain messages (the particular ones where swingman started "ranting and raving"). I just found a different news server.

Yes, indeed. Did anybody ever say that your saw needed alignment? Did anybody say it was incapable of doing precise work? Did anybody criticize your work as sloppy? Did anybody even tell you that you should align your saw? I don't recall anybody saying anything of the sort. And yet, every message contains an anecdote defending the quality of your woodworking and your practice of ignoring table saw alignment completely (as if it was normal and that everyone should do likewise). Why is that Frank?

Hmmm.... Perhaps you misunderstood me. What I was saying is that I'm not alone in my opinion that proper alignment is important. You are right; "some" feel that it's a waste of time. Obviously, this is your position. But, since you don't actually know the current state of your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be so confident in your assertion.

Sorry Frank, I missed your answer to the question. For Dan, which option is the bigger waste of time? The logic is very simple and easy to follow. Why do you avoid answering the question?

Perhaps I should explain why this anecdotal evidence is meaningless. First of all, it doesn't speak to Dan's situation and the thread is about Dan's desire to align his saw - not your ability to perform some specific task without any regard for the alignment of your saw. Second, I have absolutely no idea what level of quality you consider adequate and what level would prompt you to re-work a joint. Third, maybe you are post processing these "ogive feet" in such a way that would be considered re-work by some but not by you (i.e. flattening the tops or bottoms to correct for angular error on the miter). Fourth, nobody can examine the evidence to know whether or not the anecdote actually applies to the situation (i.e. maybe your "ogive feet" can be cut all day on a misaligned saw without any consequence). Fifth, by plain old dumb luck your saw might just be in good alignment and you would never know how bad it could be if it weren't. Sixth, the anecdote could be a complete fabrication of your imagination specifically designed to address your point. Shall I continue?
Here's the truth of what you say above. Dan has a right to maintain his machinery any way he wants to and doesn't need to justify his decisions to anybody else. You have a right to do the same. Both of you are free to make recommendations to the other. Either of you can turn down the other's recommendation for any reason. Neither of you should feel compelled to defend your woodworking skills and abilities as a result of having a recommendation rejected. In other words, you don't need to keep posting anecdotes describing how you can do good woodworking even though you choose to ignore the alignment of your saw. OK? Can we all agree that Dan's desire to align his saw doesn't automatically cast aspersions on your woodworking?
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
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"gnat's ass" isn't a derogatory term. It's a unit of measurement!
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writes:

Only in mixed company where you can't say RCH...
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Unfortunately I don't have any instruments calibrated in gnat's asses (or even thousandths of a gnat's ass). I'll check the NIST web site to see if they list the conversion factor between inches and gnat's asses. I'm sure that they maintain a standard gnat's ass from which all certified instruments can trace their calibration. ;-)
Seriously, swingman was making fun of (mocking) Dan's efforts to eliminate 0.016" of alignment error. That's about 1/64" for those not conversant in thousandths (and one hell of a big gnatt if this is equivalent to one thousandth of it's ass!). It's about three times the ammount that matters (0.005"). It certainly affects accuracy and borders on dangerous (i.e. kickback). It's an easy thing to fix. I just can't imagine why it has caused so much antagonism.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
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Well, *you* said it was "the sort of derogatory comment."
I'm just pointing out that it is not. It's slang.
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