Track saws?

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You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people? Same thing goes for tools.
There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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Fair comment.
--
Stuart Winsor

Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
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something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid- just ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add "yet" after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
Richard
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Richard wrote:

Stupid people work while tired or distracted. Stupid people work take short cuts when in a hurry.
It has happened. Kickback from a table saw. I was being stupid.
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-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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-MIKE- wrote:

Fatigue impairs judgment. Stupidity has nothing to do with it.

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--John
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Semantics. You guys crack me up.
Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be no arguments.
Foolish people work with power tools while fatigued.
If in fact fatigue impairs judgment. I'm guessing that's why the military or firefighters have drills after drills after drills after drills with certain procedures. It becomes such a habit, so ingrained in them, that fatigue doesn't come into play.
Same thing with safety procedures. If you're anal about it from the beginning, and continue with them, to the point that other guys make fun of you, then you just do those procedures without a second thought, even when those other guys are snickering and pointing at you with their stubby, two-knuckled fingers.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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-MIKE- wrote:

Actually not. I've done things when I was tired that I knew better than to do when I was not. One of the things the Iron Butt Association makes a big deal about is how to recognize that you are fatigued to the point of having impaired judgment. Most people don't know the signs and don't know to watch for them, which is ignorance, not stupidity.

Fatigued people don't know that they're fatigued. It sneaks up on you.

It does.
http://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/_live/pages/wpPages/FatigueImpairment.aspx http://www.ironbutt.com/tech/aow.cfm?AOWID  http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/Driver_Fatigue / http://www.apsf.org/resource_center/newsletter/2005/spring/01fatigue.htm
A couple of fatigue in the workplace handbooks from the Australian government (big downloads from a slow site--be patient) http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/resources/file/eb87fc08b727473/vwa_fatigue_handbook.pdf http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/resources/file/ebd21d435f1965f/fatigue_management_forestry.pdf
Personal experience--continuing a motorcycle trip onto a bad and very isolated road late in the day when a couple of events earlier in the day should have told me that my judgment was already impaired).
Don't dismiss it as stupidity or foolishness, learn the signs and practice watching for them.

That's part of it, but the main part is that under stress people tend to do whatever they're practiced doing.

Very true.
--
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--John
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J. Clarke wrote:

Exactly.
A theme repeated over and over, in pilot training, motorcycle advanced training, CDL training, heavy tools, high voltage, hazmat, heavy industrial... and every other safety related class I've ever seen.
One has to become mindful of their own fatigue.
The song remains the same, regardless of what specific task it's applied to...
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-MIKE- wrote: ...

There is voluminous research that fatigue _does_ impair judgment, reaction time, etc., etc., etc., ...
Even trained people make mistakes and more so when tired.
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Richard wrote:

Yes and no...
I think part of it comes from training and development of concentration.
I totally understand what you mean on one level. Somebody untrained and undisciplined does "one quick cut" under any combination of factors and amputates something. Is it a sad coincidence? Or is it stupidity?
I've had the privilege of formal training in woodworking, high voltage electrics, and flight. What they all have in common, is the goal of the student understanding what frame of mind they should be in to safely complete the activity and continuing to use the same level of care after training is completed. The golden goal is for the student to automatically recognize a bad human or mechanical factor, while there is still time to stop, long after training is complete.
The key is when you are tired, distracted, or unsure of the correct method to follow, yet you choose to continue into a situation. Some might hold that out as stupidity. I might also hold out someone who blindly uses a tool capable of quickly cutting tough materials, without so much as reading the manual or instructions, as stupid.
In my day job, I've known people who were killed under those circumstances, even though they had regular reminders and formal training of why we follow safety procedures. They even had enough experience to have personally had occasions where the properly followed safety procedures uncovered a deadly condition in advance, so they were unhurt at the time.
The "not stupid" comes in when a failure that could not be reasonably expected, or found in advance with a reasonable inspection, causes things to go awry.
The gray area comes in with the self-taught nature of woodworking. But hey, that's where warning labels and user manual sidebars come from.
Sorry for the long post, but this is something I take a big interest in...
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Well I was taught woodwork at school for three years (1959-'62) but it was all hand tools. There were only two pieces of powered equipment in the shop then. A lathe which the teacher did some demonstrations on and an ancient whetstone grinder - sort of thing that has about a two foot diameter wheel, about six inches wide and rotates at about 60rpm.
My working life I spent maintaining and repairing transmitters for the BBC, everything from 2W UHF relays to 300kW HF transmitters. All valves (tubes) in the early days though we never got away from the need for high voltages at high power. I was properly trained, I was authorised under the HV switchgear rules.
All of us, I guess, did driver training and passed a test in order to get our licences but we all make errors from time to time - not necessarily leading to any sort of "accident" or damage to ourselves or vehicles.
I went to plane something and in a moment of thoughtless, an act of habit I suppose, I picked up a power plane and grasped it like a hand plane.
It's a bit like the following example:
Every day you drive to work, taking the same route and turn left at a certain junction, you've been doing it for years. Now, it's your day off and you're going somewhere which involves driving the same route except that you need to turn right at the junction. Your driving is fine, safe and steady, you're concentrating on the traffic around you and suddenly you realise you turned left at that junction after all.
--
Stuart Winsor

Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
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I'm coming in way late in the thread but 2 stories to relate...
1) Getting ready for a festival where a couple friends were setting up a table, I was making a table top much too quickly (a "last minute" type deal). With something as simple as a utility knife... The plan was to re-top an existing table with a layer of quarter inch of hardboard. Instead of going through the motions to get a real saw out and making the cut, I decided to hold a 1 by on it as a straight edge and cut it with the utility knife. Well, duh! The knife slipped and I have a scar on my left index finger from an eighth inch below the nail to the second knuckle.
2) Winter. Unheated shop, about 30F. 1 pass in the router table to make. (side note, cheap Skil (I think) router, early in my days of power tools, if I had been using hand tools, this wouldn't have happened) I set the bit height and did a test pass. Not quite high enough. I loosened the lock and started tapping the tool to get it up just a hair... using my left hand to feel the height in relation to the fence and my right hand to tap. I don't even need to tell the rest, do I? The tapping hand hit the switch and the pinky and ring finger of my left hand were in the blade. Another pair of scars I'll wear forever. Luckily, they were just resting loosely so they basically flopped out of the way. I got the machine off and looked at the red splatter and then my hand (another side note, I have played guitar since I was 13). It was the closest I have ever come to fainting. I had to go in the house, remove my insulated overalls and lay down on the floor with my feet elevated on a chair. Oh, to top it all off, I was completely alone... no one to call for help I had really needed it. They healed fine but it took about 5 weeks before I could use them anywhere near normally and about 10 weeks before I could play my guitar with all the fingers on my left hand.
Hmmmm.... why *am* I relating this? Hopefully someone out there will learn from my mistakes, I guess. And saying "crap happens" I guess. Were these things stupid? I dunno... maybe. I'd like to chalk them up to inexperience. What would have been really stupid would be if I hadn't learned from them. Both of these were done as a result of trying to rush things and not following basic safety procedures. Hopefully, I'm better at assessing things like that.
Ed
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Ed Edelenbos wrote:

Isn't a utility knife a hand tool? :-p
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-MIKE-

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Hmmm... maybe I *haven't* learned to think before I do. (grin)
Ed
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There are dangerous tools out there. For one example, take a dremel tool with cut off disk. If you get the disk just a little out of alignment, the disk will break and be sent flying all over the place.
The easiest way to make it safer is to use a thicker disk, but they sometimes break and disintegrate too.
Puckdropper
--
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To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
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Puckdropper wrote:

You're correct. All of them.

That can be said, given different specifics, with any tool.

Here's the easiest way to make a hammer safer. http://www.pad-up.com/picture.asp?PictureID 317
--

-MIKE-

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Puckdropper wrote:

When I was in high school a friend of mine and I used to have our own little automotive painting business. Of course, all the workspace and tools were borrowed from our fathers, and I'll never forget one HEAVY and nasty old metal bodied hand-held grinder owned by my friend's father. We had a big wire brush installed on that thing for rust removal (safety guard? What's that?), and it was turned on and off with a TOGGLE switch. One day I was preparing to use it, so I hauled it out and plopped it down in the middle of the driveway, then proceeded to plug it in. Of course, then damn toggle switch was in the ON position, and I can tell you there's nothing quite so frightening as a nasty screaming wire brush monster hopping around the driveway trying to take a bite out of your shin bones! I don't know how I managed to escape injury or to regain control of the power cord and yank the connector apart, but I can tell you I had a racing heart and a fair amount of shit running down my legs!
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Ideed: 25 years ago, - Heavy angle grinder with 9" wheel, in a hurry, taking shortcuts. (Shortcuts that I knew presented danger.) Grinder kicked back, hitting me in the face with the wheel. Result: Near death from blood loss, emergency surgery and over 100 sutures to repair face.
........stupid!
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DiggerOp wrote:

Glad you're ok.
Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be no arguments.
Nonetheless, the analogy holds water.
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-MIKE-

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Thanks. : )

In my case, stupid is the the appropriate word ... without doubt : )
1/ It was middle of summer and I removed the protective face shield I was wearing because I had to keep wiping the sweat from the inside.
2/ The grinder wouldn't fit inside the narrow opening of the machine housing I was working on, so I removed the side handle.
3/ My hands were also sweaty which made it difficult to hold the grinder securely.
4/ I couldn't reach the last weld I had to grind off with the grinding wheel guard in place, ........ so I removed it.
5/ I had done something similar before and lost control of the grinder, seeing it kick back and fly past me, landing 20 feet away.
6/ I had other options, -- get a smaller more manageable grinder, or use oxy/actylene.
To my way of thinking, foolish would have been using that tool which was too big and awkward in the first place, when there were safer alternatives. : )
However, doing something that I already new was dangerous and then proceeding to remove all the safeguards in place to make it even more dangerous, ....
That definitely qualifies as stupid. : )
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