Safety-Guard SACRILEGE.

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Ok I pretty much lurk here except to milk you guys for information once and a while, but the SawStop posts and safety debates have piqued my interest. I work in a shop with about a dozen other guys and we've got a couple sliding table saws, a couple Unisaurs and a couple of the big 12-14" Deltas too. The only saw that really ever has the blade guard in place is the Altendorf slider, and that's probably on 1/3 of the time - when someone's breaking down a pile of plywood for cabinet box parts. And then it's really only used for the dust collection. In the 5 years I've been at the shop we've had exactly one hand injury from a table saw, and that was a guy doing a groove in a very small part that he admits he never should have done anyway, and couldn't possibly have done it with the guard in place. (He basically put a little groove in the tip of a finger - two stitches.) When I go over to the slider, for example, and I need to rip a strip of plywood for say a stretcher, if that guard is in place I push it right out of the way. I just don't like reaching my hand around that big plastic thing wondering where in the heck the blade is - I like to be able to see the spinning blade (through my (almost) ever present safety glasses) so I can keep my hand away from it. I feel like those guards might actually make things more unsafe WHILE CUTTING. Now if someone's going to walk by a saw and slip and fall into a spinning blade, well..what in the hell is he doing anyhow? I mean seriously - if you can't walk around your shop without falling into the top of a table saw, you've got bigger issues to address than a blade guard. And in the case of the whole Whirlywind versus SawStop debate I'd have to come down decidedly on the SawStop side of things - if it was a choice between one or the other. (But there's not much chance of me buying a $3000 saw any time soon...and if I were I'd be getting a really nice used Tannewitz with a feeder or something along those lines.)
So I guess I have no real point other than to say that I think safety in the shop is at least 95% using good commone sense and keeping your eye on things. Feeling how the wood and the saw are responding is key for me. Proper technique and feed rate are key. A splitter is absolutely a great thing. Guards? I'm just not a fan.
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Ask people about their opinions on seatbelts or airbags or any other safety device. Separate the answers into two groups - Safety Device Kept Them Kicking vs. No Personal Experience With It. See if you notice a correlation between a positive opinion on the safety device and which group they fall in.
I understand your point, and agree that a lot of safety devices require an adjustment in use/behavior, but you obviously have never been injured so the topic is a theoretical one for you.
Ask a guy what he'd do if he caught his wife in bed with another guy and then _have_ him catch his wife in bed with the other guy. My suggestion, regardless of the guy's answer to the theoretical question, don't be the other guy in the second scenario.
R
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"RicodJour" wrote in message

When I was a kid we didn't have bike helmets. But when my wife and I got mountain bikes some years back they came with helmets so we wore them. It didn't take long before my wife took a fall that split her helmet in half, but she didn't have a scratch on her. Needless to say we replaced that helmet before we went riding again. Today I wouldn't dream of riding a bike without a helmet--as you say, I'm in the Now We Know group.
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I don't use that guard as most of my cutting can not be done with it on. However seat belts are a different thing. Save me 3 times as I could maneuver with out sliding on the seat an losing control. 1 a large dog at night that could have been a child, hard to tell with oncoming lights. 2 a deer that came out of the brush fast. 3 a idiot that came on the highway with out stopping I was able to go off road and back on with good control.. Had a friend that refused to use seat belts, was injured because of this in an accident. Second time he was killed when a drunk hit him and as the car rolled he was ejected an car landed on him. His wife had belt on and received a cut finger. WW
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You probably have nbo idea how many more times seatbelts have saved your life or prevented injury to you.
You forgot to mention the guy, in the other car, wearing a seatbelt, that stayed behind the wheel, and controlled still his car, after being hit or sufferring another incident to dislodge his driving position.
I don't use that guard as most of my cutting can not be done with it on. However seat belts are a different thing. Save me 3 times as I could maneuver with out sliding on the seat an losing control. 1 a large dog at night that could have been a child, hard to tell with oncoming lights. 2 a deer that came out of the brush fast. 3 a idiot that came on the highway with out stopping I was able to go off road and back on with good control.. Had a friend that refused to use seat belts, was injured because of this in an accident. Second time he was killed when a drunk hit him and as the car rolled he was ejected an car landed on him. His wife had belt on and received a cut finger. WW
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I'm a firm believer in seat belts. Some years back, there was an accident on one of the country roads a mile or so from where we lived at the time. Someone crossed the center line, not sure which driver, but the result was a head-on collision at some 50mph each between a full-size pickup truck and a compact car on the order of a Fiesta or something similar. The seatbelted elderly couple in the Fiesta had ankle injuries. The UNbelted 30something driver of the pickup was pronounced dead at the scene.
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A splitter is

I think most pro shops do eventually take off all the guards. I think as a pro you do somehwat repetitive processes and become aware of safe vs non-safe motions. Regardless, while your experience has been very little blood, the national statistics are pretty clear and hundreds of people loose digits and worse every year.
Here is a quote from a lawyer who takes saw injury cases.
"Every 9 minutes a person in the United States is injured using a table saw. Ten people everyday suffer amputations. "
Every nine mimutes. Wow, I would not want to be that person or one of those other 10 people. You think they would become more careful after a while.
And then seriously another study by Science Daily says "A recent study conducted by the Center for Injury Research and Policy of The Research Institute at Nationwide Children's Hospital found that from 1990-2007, an estimated 565,670 non-occupational table saw- related injuries were treated in US hospital emergency departments, averaging 31,500 injuries per year."
Again note: "Non-occupational" I think pros are more careful.
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On 1/23/2011 3:05 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

Take such statistics with a grain of salt. Operative word is "related".
Injuries are routinely classified as "table saw related" even when involving a table saw without a blade attached and/or not plugged in.
DAMHIKT
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
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"Swingman" wrote in message

How many? 50%? 5%? Makes a big difference, just saying some accidents didn't involve a spinning blade doesn't give us useful information, it's like telling someone to wade across a river with an average depth of only two feet.
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:36:00 -0800, "DGDevin"

His point was NOT is not claiming how MUCH to adjust the numbers as to the "related"...just that there IS an adjustment to be made. The fact is that it's kinda like when MADD "cites" teen alcohol related accidents...if a PASSENGER in the OTHER car was drunk, MADD will still use it as a teen+alcoholD things accident.
That is one reason why I'd like to see MADD just go the hell away
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On Jan 23, 5:36pm, snipped-for-privacy@iname.com wrote:

That's curious. And by curious I mean stupid and myopic.
You've never seen something the person driving hadn't? When I'm in the 'nervous seat', as my brother and I call it, I'm paying at least as much attention as the driver.
R
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I've done that too, especially if they're a mediocre driver. There's several people I know that I now refuse to get in the car with if they're driving. Fortunately, my closest friend whom I happen to ride with the most is an excellent driver.
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to lunch together from time to time. Two guys pretty quickly found out that they were the only ones in the entire department who would consent to be a passenger when the other of the pair was the driver. Lots of people rode with them once. I don't think anybody ever rode with either of them twice.
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:30:35 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

I said a passenger IN THE OTHER CAR...how does a drunk passenger have ANYTHING to do with the fact that the other driver is a teenager?
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On Jan 26, 7:11pm, snipped-for-privacy@iname.com wrote:

Two cars ARE involved in the accident. Only one OF them needs TO get out of the WAY to avoid the two car collision that you are referring to - with ME so FAR...?
If THE driver in either car is distracted, the odds of avoiding the ACCIDENT, for both cars, GOES down. Still WITH me?
A drunk teenager in a CAR is a major distraction. I THINK you can handle it FROM there. THANKS.
R
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:39:01 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

Let's try this again...tell me how it's a TEEN drinking related accident if the teen involved is NOT drinking? Shall we blame ALL teenagers of being drunk behind the wheel?
That arguement is the same as saying that ALL blondes are dumb or that all Italians are in the mob.
My point from the beginning is that MADD uses an accident like what I just described to bolster their arguement that ALL uses of alcohol is BADBADBAD.
If you can't or won't accept that sometimes crap happens, then you live in a happier world than the one that I live in..
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On Jan 26, 10:20pm, snipped-for-privacy@iname.com wrote:

You said it was a teen drunk in the other car. I'm not sure if you're purposefully being obtuse or what. I understand your point, but you don't apparently understand mine.
Having some drunk in the car, regardless of age, increases the risk of an accident for the people in that car, whether the drunk is driving or not. You can play semantic games and get your knickers in a twist about MADD, but I don't really see the problem.

They are, and they are. Oh, excuse me - let me put that in words you'll understand. They ARE, and THEY are.

Well, holy shit and stop the presses - somebody has an agenda?!

Getting upset about someone having an agenda, and then throwing out even the good stuff that they might try to do is just silly. Buck up.
R
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No, he didn't. Go back and read it again.
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On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:30:43 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

I NEVER said that the teen was drunk....I said, from the beginning that it was the PASSENGER in the other car. If the driver of the other car can't maintain control because he or she has a passenger, then that person should NEVER drive

I'll stipulate that point, but not so far as to pin ANY blame on the accident to the teen

I don't mind an agenda....we all have one...but I don't expect the taxpayers of this country to pay for mine

Tell me this....exactly WHAT good has that group done?
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snipped-for-privacy@iname.com says...

I am curious as to how a drunk passed out in the back seat increases the risk of an accident.

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