Re: OT - Is it really worth saving any more?

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Upscale wrote:

Of the two links you cite above, only one really rises the the "normal citizen who decided to carry a gun that day" The case of the two men returning still falls under a pre-meditated act. We have had similar cases in the US where angry people return to a place from which they have been bounced in a vehicle traveling at high speed with the intent to run down the doorman and others.

What you've already provided shoots down your assertion, while a very small number of cases may occur (some of which, as stated above are simply because the gun was the closest tool), your links indicate that the largest number of such deaths are a result of getting caught in gangland or drug-related violence -- both of which will not be resolved by disarming regular citizens. As I asked before, for the small number of the other cases that appear to get a great deal of highly charged press, you are not informed of the many times when a law abiding citizen with a gun prevents violence to themselves or loved ones.
I'd much rather take my chances with being able to defend myself while have a vanishingly small chance of encountering something such as you describe than being made into an unarmed victim in a disarmed populace.
You people in Canada can do as you please -- gun control has really worked out well for Britain and also Australia where violent crime is up now that the criminals know the people are unable to defend themselves.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html
"Australia's Gun Laws: Little Effect"
"In 2002-3, Australia's rate of 0.27 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people was one-fifteenth that of the U.S. rate."
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While the period of time necessary for pre-mediation to exist varies to a certain amount, leaving a bar angry and coming back within a few minutes doesn't fall into the pre-meditation category as far as I'm concerned. He was angry when he left and was still under the same cloud of anger when he came back and pulled the trigger. Nevertheless, it's obvious whatever I say or what proof I provide isn't going to change your mind.

That statement is meaningless. The reason why it happens so rarely up here is that the vast bulk of the general public don't own or have access to guns to use as a means of self defence. You might state that information of that type is kept from public knowledge so people don't get the idea of arming themselves, but you'd be wrong. I worked with Metro Police for a period and a close friend of mine, was a sergeant with them at the time. If that type of thing was happening, I'd have heard about it.
You live where you live and I live here. There's a number of reasons for my knowledge and experience here to be in excess of what you might believe to be true, but that's your choice. Believe what you like.
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On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 03:48:16 -0500, Upscale cast forth these pearls of wisdom...:

I simply responded to the fanatical statement about warring citizens if guns were more commonplace.

You have an interesting definition of stressed. I'm not surprised at it though. I've watched your comments in enough of these off topic diatribes here to realize you are much like Lew in that both of you delight in darting conversations off to the side with irrelevant red herrings, and then you try to turn the focus back on those who catch you at your game. My guess is that is really quite stressful for you. It's really quite evident in the manner in which you quickly resort to the ad-hominem tactics.

Maybe you have a temper that is more out of control than the majority of the people around you, and that causes you to see everyone else through your own eyes. The reality is that people already do own guns, they already do experience the stresses, anguishes and turmoils of life, and they do not go for those guns as a coping mechanism. The argument that they may is what does not make any sense.

What constitues "a fair amount", and what are the references for this?

The last statement is the most accurate one you've made in this thread.
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:59:17 +0000, Han wrote:

Extend that to drivers license too. Road rage is more dangerous with more horse power than any gun and fools can take out groups with one aim and action. There are a lot of dummies with keys. Fewer carry loaded guns wherever they go. If they do carry a gun, if sober it might be better to run you over. That might fly as an accident in court.
A shooting always looks like malice.
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:59:17 GMT, Han cast forth these pearls of wisdom...:

And those restrictions (not arguing their merit), would do precisely what(?) to prevent these types of incidents? Do you really feel that the perpetrators of this type of crime worry about legal posession of a gun? Sorry Han, but this is more of the same reactive sort of thinking that does nothing to benefit a matter, but does a lot to impare those who aren't your typical, or even your remotely typical culprit.
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Well, where do the guns to commit crimes come from? If everyone has guns, then it is easy to steal some. If not everyone has guns, and those that do lock them up well, then (maybe) there will be fewer guns to commit crimes with.

No I don't think the bad guys worry about legal possession, but see above.

Sorry, I can't quite follow what you're trying to say.
Let me just paraphrase what's happened in NYC a numbver of years back. Police were told to get after farejumpers (people who didn't pay the fare for the subway, mainly). This way a lot of people left their illegal weapons at home, after they or their friends had them nabbed by the police. Either as a result, or because of changing demographics or because of other reasons, the crime rate went down. I happen to believe that nabbing bad guys had something to do with it. So good laws and good law enforcement will help. It's not the whole thing, of course. And laws like the voting/literacy laws were not good laws.
I'll crawl back into my hole now ...
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Han wrote:

Lock it up as well as you want to, if someone wants it they will steal it. Pass a chain through a window, run it around the gun safe, hook it to the trailer hitch on your truck, drive away, and the safe comes right out, through the wall. Toss it in your truck and drive off and open it at your leisure.
Then there are the firearms that disappear from police evidence lockups.
Then there are the ones that come in with the drugs.

What of it? Iraq was a police state before the US invaded, and yet it seems, despite Saddam's best efforts before the US arrived and the US military occupation's best efforts since, that any Iraqi who wants a gun (or bomb or RPG or just about any other kind of weapon) has one.

Nabbing bad guys is fine. But I don't see what it has to do with guns.

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I sometimes wonder when I see the likes of our Congress.
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Han
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I previously wrote:

Seems two women got into a "cat" fight, hair pulling, the whole bit, inside the store.
The men accompanying the women were each packing heat (Just what you need to go to the toy store) which they pulled out and shot and killed each other as the fight escalated..
Darwin rules.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Two casualties, the guy that drew the gun and the guy that he drew it on. If the second guy hadn't screwed up then there'd be one.
No "shooting up the place".

About what it always was only between the press and the Internet things get more sensationalized.
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Read up on it at http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toystoreshooting29-2008nov29,0,5989270.story
We definitely need more guns. Worked real good for Beirut, eh?
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jo4hn wrote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toystoreshooting29-2008nov29,0,5989270.story
What, military occupation and the declaration of martial law?
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jo4hn wrote:

Good heavens! Could a newspaper story be any more sensationalized? Whatever happened to just reporting the facts? Whoever wrote this intended to make it sound like a movie scene.
No wonder the dead tree media is on its way downhill.
Several clues as to what transpired, who was involved, and the fact that more gun laws probably wouldn't have had any sort of impact:
"... a dispute between two couples who had 'previous hostility.'"
"... pulling the grip from his baggy pants pocket."
" ... Even after the shooting, one woman was still screaming angrily. ... "I'm going to . . . kill you right now!" she shouted, slamming her fists on the car. "I'm going to kill you! Yeah, you!" "
Not a lot to go on, but one can make some inferences. Of course the reporters don't provide any additional context, they were too busy writing their Hollywood script.

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Mark & Juanita wrote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-toystoreshooting29-2008nov29,0,5989270.story
killed, given it was a crowded toy store." is so difficult for you to understand. Two knuckleheads with guns shooting in a crowded store and you are whining about the "sensationalized" writeup. You have truly lost your soul somewhere.     j4
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I don't see any miracle. I see that two guys took a shot at each other and hit the target they aimed at. I don't condone what they did, but they did not shoot at innocent people, nor did they hit any. Perhaps they spent hours at a shooting range and learned how to aim. Maybe they should get the Darwin Sharpshooters Award.
Perhaps one of the two should be a hero for taking the other one out. Let's get the rest of the story and base a decision on facts.
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wrote in message

Well, next time there is going to be a shooting like that, I'd want to know who is going to volunteer to stand directly behind one of the shooters.
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Han wrote:

If they're using typical handguns it's a pretty safe place to stand--duck down behind the guy and he makes a good shield.
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Did you notice the sentence about getting the facts? Was anyone standing behind the shooters? There are many possible scenarios so I'm not jumping to conclusions.
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