OT (kinda) - Hardi Panel Siding w/o sheeting

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Interestingly in the last 6 or so years, no ovbious signs of bugs in the store room.
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According to the directions, sheathing is not required for Hardi Panel. However they do stress using a moisture barrier. So at a minimum, no sheathing but I would use a moisture barrier. Then if the product does fail, then you would be able to make claim on the warranty. If it were me, I would use sheathing just to give it more rigidity, a moisture barrier, and caulk the seams as well. Though it is up to you.
Allen
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On 10/4/10 6:47 PM, allen476 wrote:

If you're worried about a warranty, I would call the company and make sure they will honor it on a shed. I'm fairly certain the moisture barrier has nothing to with protecting the cement board and everything to do with the intended purpose of a moisture barrier on a residence, regardless of the siding material used.
Unless you're going to be heating & cooling your lawn tractor and shovels, there's no need for a moisture barrier. In fact (as I wrote in another post) I would go so far as to have open eaves on the overhang (if you have them) or some sort of venting on each end of the roof peaks, to allow for some air flow to prevent a greenhouse effect.
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-MIKE-

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If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing... it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it pretty well if on 16" centers.
Since there is no insulation or heat or interior drywall the moisture barrier could probably be ignored... there would be some risk of wind driven rain penetration at joints but with the 1 1/4" lap leaks at the laps would be minimal. It will dry...
John
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On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
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-MIKE-

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I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
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On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard every time I put her away.
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-MIKE-

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The risk goes up if it's wide and blind nailed... I"ve got a lot of heavy stuff in my shed, like digging bars, buckets of lead, etc. that would bust the siding off with no problem if it fell against the siding...
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On 10/4/10 8:29 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

Makes for an interesting experiment, but I doubt 1/4" ply would fare any better.
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-MIKE-

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I use 1/2" or 3/4" depending on where I'm using it...
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On 10/4/10 9:00 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I know 1/2" is standard, but I was using equivalent size for comparison. I might even put up 1/4" Hardi against some of the horrible 7/16" 3 ply I see at Home Depot and Lowes.
3/4" sheathing, imo, would be waaaaay overkill. :-)
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I've used 3/4 a few times... like when 1/4 fiber board is on other parts of the house and when I need to nail into the sheathing for trim and such when there are no studs in the vicinity. An example of the later is putting 4" trim around windows and needing to nail the Hardie Plank siding to something. 3/4 is also good in hurricane areas!
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In article <24fb9f2c-34a1-4a2a-8610-000b24b2dbb9

Is the siding going to be in ground contact? If not you don't need pressure treated. Paint all exposed surfaces (that's top, bottom, edges, and outward-face) before you put it up, use proper Z-flashing properly gapped along the top, and keep it painted and it should last longer than you will.

The moisture barrier is not there to protect the hardi-panel, it's there to protect the structure behind it. Hardi-panel is much like concrete-- it can hold and pass a remarkable amount of water. Having structure in contact with it with no moisture barrier can result in the edge of the structure in contact with the hardi-panel being kept damp and rotting. Since it's covered by the hardi-panel you won't be able to tell by inspection that it's rotting and your first notice may be when the shed falls down.
Note that you can combine hardi-plank and t1-11 to good effect--if the shed sits on grade the lower edge of the t1-11 will be closer to the ground than is desirable--keep it painted and it will be fine but you have to keep on top of it. If instead you put a foot or so of hardi- plank at the bottom with aluminum flashing behind it, then a z-flashing and t1-11 above, you'll end up with a pretty durable installation that doesn't need much maintenance.

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On 10/05/2010 02:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

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And weighs a Briazillion pounds. ;~)
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Bingo. And that is 75% of the reason you have a moisture barrier. Having attended more than one cementitious product installation instructional seminar they all agree to that. That is also why they STRONGLY recommend a suitable paint over the siding.
With our weather extremes, I am gunshy about installing Hardie on long unbroken runs. Tough to beat on areas that are just a couple of pieces (or less) wide, but long runs don't seem to be a good fit with our weather. I have mitigated the problem of the product expanding and contracting somewhat by using good quality paint to prime the backside before installation on the longer runs. Shorter runs still receive nothing.
I have gone to houses that we clad with cement planking a few years ago, and in long runs (say 40 - 50' across a house) that stuff moves like crazy even after a factory rep certified our proper installation (at the request of the client).
Which leads to the second reason for a "moisture barrier". Slip sheathing. When you nail off the siding directly onto the wood (sheathing or studs) it creates enough friction that when the siding moves it will tear up the connection points. (See Leon's post on the wallowed out holes further down). The barrier allows the cement siding to "slip" a bit around the fasteners since it is not directly nailed to hard contact the wood. Since movement can/will cause spalling and thus loose siding, why take any kind of chance? I can't. I have to warrant my product.
That is why on a shed or an open shop we just use 15# or 30# felt. Works great, and cheap, too.
Robert
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On 10/5/2010 1:03 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

30# please ...
Your above is why I use "vent skin" construction on a house finished with siding products, particularly in our "hot, humid climate" building zone.
By layer, as follows: sheathing; 30# felt (or tyvek); vertical 1x4's @ 16" OC installed thru/to soffit/attic floor; siding nailed to 1x4's.
(Note: I don't like to blind nail cement board using this method and would rather putty nail holes prior to painting.)
The resultant 3/4" gap between the sheathing and siding from first course all the way into atic (with a 9" screen folded over 1x4's at the bottom to keep out insects"), PLUS ridge vent(s), will insure a continuous flow of air moving up the sides of the structure and out the roof vent.
Any moisture that does penetrate the siding will be mitigated by said air flow, which keeps thing dry over the long haul.
An excellent construction method where high wind and rain is expected.
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OK... me first.
wrote:

I said shed or an open shop, you said house. On a house, I use the paper/Tyvek combo.
I was trying to keep in context in my post.
Naww..... just messin' with you.

A reluctant SNIP of really good stuff...

Excellent, indeed. That really sounds like the stuff, there. I have heard of similar installation processes, but *never* that detailed or well thought out.
Is that a KarlCo original detail? If so, it's a keeper. I am going to bookmark that one for future reference. Every once in a while we replace wood siding on a heavy sun facing with Hardie, and that really seems like the detail we need on a house.
Impressive. No kidding. I have been thinking that over for a couple of hours. Impressive...
As one of my colleagues likes to say, "I think I'll put that one in my pocket and take it with me."
Have you gotten any feedback from the clients where you have followed this detail about siding movement or heat transfer?
My BIGGEST problem is movement, mainly shrinkage. We have used that crap recommended by Hardie call "Big Stretch", and that was the worst latex elastomeric crap I have ever used. Made it two seasons on the sun side of the house without tearing. I never have any bulging joints (I only buy from a yard that properly stores the planking) but I always have some shrinkage. I push them up tight, and they still shrink as much about 1/8" during the droughts, but close back up when the rainy season starts. (You know, also known as winter around here.)
Priming the backside has mitigated that a bit, but certainly not eliminated it.
Any thoughts on that, whilst on this topic?
Robert
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On 10/5/2010 11:24 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

The idea has been around for years. A similar method sometimes call a "rain skin" has been used in more Northern climates for sometime and this is basically and adaptation of that, but with venting into attics equipped with ridge vents to move the air.
A very simple concept, and one that uses nature alone to provide the benefit ... no moving parts or fuel costs. ;)
You won't find much about skin vent construcion, or literature on it. It is not something usually seen in the industry, therefore most have never heard of it, and like all things unknown, will not embrace it unless someone else does it first and leads the way
Architects are familiar with the principles behind it, and one of the most notable architect/builders in this area has also been building this way for years.
It makes a world of sense in certain climates if you think about it. After all, the siding on a house is non structural in nature, can be thought of as simply as skin protecting the structure from the elements, so why not incorporate air flow, by use of a void space between the siding and sheathing in that protection, allowing quick drying of any moisture intrusion, something which is likely in hot, humid climates that are subjected to periodic high winds and rain.
It doesn't take a rocket surgery mentality to realize the benefits, just some thinking outside the normal. Most builders are deadly afraid to do anything that is not traditional, or that adds cost.
In this case, the cost is minnimal ... the 1x4 stock being the only real cost. Labor to do it is no more than what the normal siding/cornice crew would charge, so you shouldn't see an increase in labor costs at all. Your painter might charge a bit more for filling nail holes due to my own penchant to not blind nailing, but I've never noticed a difference in a painters overall bid because of that.
What's few hundred bucks for a correspondingly bigger bang for those bucks.
That said, it is money spent where the average home buyer can't see it ... an anathema to 99% of builders.

Going on over ten years and no known problems thus far. I did my own home this way, FIRST. You gotta eat your own dog food.

I've never seen abnormal movement with nailing Hardi siding to 1x4's @ 16" OC ... AAMOF, probably less ... although I have no statistical evidence to back it up, visually there have been no issues that I'm aware of.
That said, this works very well in the "hot, humid" building zone along the Gulf Coast, and I have absolutely no experience using it in drier building zones.
--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
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* SNIP *
THANKS for the great instruction and the time to type it out, Karl. I really like that detail. A lot.
Robert
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