OT: ethics

Page 2 of 4  
Swingman wrote:

on taxes or sleeping around.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:49:24 -0600, Swingman wrote:

I think you've got it. But it is interesting that I got a lot more response to the afterthought on frequent flier miles than to the main thread of shopping during working time.
As for those who thought I worked in a sweatshop, I was a computer programmer for about 45 years. The last 15 or so as self-employed. I went in when I felt like it, worked at home when I wanted, etc.. The rare times when I conducted personal business at work, I got it approved first. And as a freelance, I deducted any such time, and any long lunch hours, from the hours billed.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There is a *big* difference between a salaried person and a contractor. Charging a contract for personal time spent is (almost always, but I'm sure someone will find an exception somewhere ;) fraud. Salary, at least in theory, has nothing to do with the actual time worked.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: ...

I've no clue where on earth or which employer(s) you've worked that would have that notion...
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The *theory* is that you're paid to do a job and measured on that, rather than the number of hours sitting at a desk. In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they're different.
When I worked for IBM no one ever looked at my hours. I could come and go as I pleased. The only rule was that if I wasn't going to show up management should know about it, preferably ahead of time. THe last decade or so I was there, working from home was perfectly acceptable though again, management had to know how to get ahold of you.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: ...

Nowhere I ever worked (engineering) didn't have a listed set of office hours as part of the employment arrangement whether there was a formal contract agreement or simply as part of the package of information personnel provided during hiring and/or orientation. "Theory" was there was sufficient complexity in the work to keep one occupied those hours...or more... :)
As noted in another thread, I've been in organizations that were at both extremes (as well as in the middle) on actually keeping track or paying attention to _when_ the hours were worked altho I've never been in one that didn't keep track of which projects one was working on simply for cost management and control; even in internal R&D organizations. It would seem only if one was in a group that had only a single mission and top-level budget could that not be required to have any handle whatsoever on costs. And, of course, if one is working on projects that have end-customers such as power nuclear reactors for specific utilities, its clearly required to know which project gets billed appropriately. And, of course, if one were working defense or other gov't-funded contracts the paper reqm'ts to satisfy DCAA were significant irrespective of the employer's bent w/o that "motivation".
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The official policy was something like "7:42 to 4:40, give or take two hours." The unofficial policy was "get your work done". Of course this included being present for any meetings. Outside a couple of years after IBM got a shiny new time accounting system and when I was contracting to Lockheed Martin, I haven't filled out a time card for thirty-five years. Other than the contracting stint, my pay has never been tied to the time sheet.

Sure. I've usually worked on one product, though perhaps several subsystems at a time. Where I work now, there is a spreadsheet we fill out every month or three. There are columns for different projects but I've never entered anything in any other than one project's "development" column, or in "paid time off".
When I was contracting (DOD contract) it was only one project, so it was just time in/out. ...and they screwed that up.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
scrawled the following:

Every employer wants a salary based on 40 hours but many also -expect- the salaried employee to work 60 hours a week for it. Many get it.
-- Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
on 11/30/2009 1:10 PM (ET) snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote the following:

Well it does in union shops. In non union shops, it's the quality of the work performed.
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Blanchard wrote: ...

Has much to do w/ circumstances and workplace culture and how hours are scheduled.
I've been in professional offices where rigorous hours were expected for everybody including both departure as well as arrival. In that environment, there's no room for personal time other than the mandatory, short time to deal with stuff like answering the reminder phone from dentists' office or home on the sick kids or whatever...
OTOH, I spent quite a long time (>20 yrs) in another organization that was laisse-faire about individual hours as long as there was sufficient overlap w/ colleagues that all necessary interactions occurred on a timely basis. There, folks worked their own schedule and routinely worked far over the "base 40" on own volition even accounting for personal time taken while at the desk[1]. Abuse would be fairly easily observed as it wouldn't take long before an excess of nonproductive hours would show up in that individual's output. Individual timesheets and logs were required to be kept as backup documentation although never routinely scrutinized; only the reported hours on the bimonthly timecards were routinely used.
When self-employed and billing by the hour, obviously meticulous attention to billing only hours actually working for the particular client is mandatory.
[1] Part of that was owing to the fact that while this was a quite large overall organization it was (at that time still) 100% employee-owned; hence, there was an inherent self-rewarding financial incentive to do well financially for the company as it was essentially working for oneself.
--


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

While that makes a lot of sense, properly run private companies offer good incentives also. Profit sharing and bonuses work well. It also makes it easy to find the slackers and get rid of them since they are taking "our" money.
Pride in doing a good job helps too.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Never said it didn't; simply was describing one particular organization.
OTOH, ime many companies that have profit sharing and/or bonus plans tend to "top-load" the rewards from those more based on position than actual performance. The company of which I was speaking (being a bunch of engineers/scientists from the git-go) had a set of formulae the founders had derived to arbitrate based on specific criteria.
--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:37:31 -0600, dpb wrote:

Observing the performance of several "consultants" who billed by the day or week is what made me billby the hour :-).
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Blanchard wrote:

What used to bug me was the guy who was making $30 an hour yakking on the phone with his wife while the $300/hr consultant cooled his heels wating for an answer he needed in order to get on with his job.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Blanchard wrote:

As a freelancer/self employed, chances are you probably work more than you could ever bill.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

While not technically self employed, I worked as a contractor for Lockheed Martin for a year. I regularly billed them for the 65-70hrs/ week worked. I wasn't paid an overtime multiplier but at my regular hourly rate that would just have been a further embarrassment. ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:28:29 -0600, the infamous Larry Blanchard

Hey, if the company handed me a ticket, they'd have the miles. If they made me buy my own ticket on my own credit card, I'd certainly expect to retain the miles. I'm sure that some companies specifically state that they give the miles to their employees as yet another perq, even if the employee uses a company card.
I have a couple friends who do a lot of both U.S. and international travel for their company & gov't. Those mileage perqs are the least the company can do for putting their employees in that tiring situation week after week. My govvy friend then had a hell of a time being reimbursed for the tickets he bought with his own money.
Management ethics sure have changed.
-- Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Who is the better worker? Based on a true story.
At the Widget Factory, workers wee expected to make 100 widgets each every day. Anything less than 85 would get you a warning, three warnings you are out.
Stan goes to hs bench at the start of the shift. He takes a quick break and is back in the allotted time. Takes lunch and promptly return. At the end of the day, he is able to make 90 widgets, the best of his ability.
Richard punches in on time but is usually a few minutes late getting to his bench. Every half hour he is out taking a smoke break. At lunch, he is the first to wash up, last to return. More smoke breaks in the afternoon. He alow wanders down tot he supply room sometime chatting with othersa long htee way. At the end of the shift he is washed up and standing at the time clock, first to punch out. At t he end of the day, he's made 120 widgets, yet some call him a slacker because he is always away from his bench so much. .
Big Boss says Richard is no longer alllowed to wander away. He goes from 120 Widgets to 99 per day but Big Boss is happy because Richard is now a steady worker.
New model Widget II is starting production. No one knows how to make it. Richard ignores those trying. Engineer that designed part comes and tries and fails after a day. Bring in tooling man at big bucks. He too fails after a half day. Everyone but Richard goes to lunch.
Ten minutes later, Richard puts perfect Widget II on my desk and asks, "is it OK if I go down to the storeroom?" Yes, you can and you can have a smoke too.
Richard is his real names and he made parts on a Pines tubing bender better and faster than anyone. He worked in spurts so no, your argument that he could produce more if he stayed at the machine were proven wrong time and again. Many people are best productive if just left alone to do their jobs.
Posted from work.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

This thread brings to mind that old Johnny Cash song "One Piece At A Time". :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Sounds like Big Boss is the kind of guy who stands by his window with watch in hand noting who comes in 30 seconds late but he's not there when the guy goes home at 2 AM.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.