OT: ethics

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Mention was made on the news tonight that "Cyber Monday" was coming up when everyone would be going back to work and ordering online.
I was already aware that most newsgroups (not so much this one) traffic dropped off considerably on the weekends and holidays.
So the only conclusion I can reach is that using your employers computer during work hours for personal matters has become widely accepted.
I grew up in a different era - work was for working. If I'd done similar stuff (no computers then) I'd have gotten fired - and I would have deserved it.
On a related subject, I was doing some contract programming for a large company when the frequent flier programs were just getting started. Someone was gloating over getting miles for a long work related trip. I said that since the employer bought the tickets, the employer should get the miles. The silence was deafening :-).
Work ethics sure have changed.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Well, they used to. When I worked for Lockheed, we turned over the miles to the company.
Tom
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: > Someone was gloating over getting miles for a long work related trip. I : > said that since the employer bought the tickets, the employer should get : > the miles. The silence was deafening :-). : : Well, they used to. When I worked for Lockheed, we turned over the miles to : the company.
And what did Lockheed do with them, executive compensation perk?
Dave in Houston
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wrote in message

Dave, did you happen to notice the thread topic?
I shouldn't have to explain this, but the point was that the miles didn't belong to me. So it would have been unethical for me to keep them. Are you with me so far? Now, for extra points, contemplate this: the people at Lockheed who found them in their possession then had an ethics problem of their own to solve. I hope - I really do - that they solved that problem in an ethically sound way.
Ethics. You could look it up.
Tom
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That would depend on company policy. Airlines started the free miles thing as a way of garnering repeat business from frequent fliers, They did not cost the ticket buyer (company) anything extra. It was a little reword for flying a specific airline. Some companies let the employees keep and use them as they see fit. A little perk that cost them nothing out of pocket.
If it was Lockheed's policy to take the miles, so be it, but not every company does or cares. Thus, no ethics problem.
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wrote in message

When I was the GM for an AC Delco wholesale distrubutor I paid with my credit card all up front expenses to remodel the offices. I was reimbursed by my employeer and I also received 5% credit for all of those purchases by my CCard company.
Should I hve given the 5% back to my employeer, Hell no. Nothing unethical there.
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: Dave, did you happen to notice the thread topic? : : I shouldn't have to explain this, but the point was that the miles didn't : belong to me. So it would have been unethical for me to keep them. Are you : with me so far? Now, for extra points, contemplate this: the people at : Lockheed who found them in their possession then had an ethics problem of : their own to solve. I hope - I really do - that they solved that problem in : an ethically sound way. : : Ethics. You could look it up.
Preachy aren't we, Tom? I'll stand my ethics next to yours anytime, Tom.. I flew enough in my later years with Southern Pacific that I made Silver Elite with Continental. SP was happy for us to keep the frequent flyer miles. And while nobody ever stated the company's philosophy [to me] I always felt like that since we were the "road warriors" [so-to-speak] who left our families and homelife behind for the benefit of the company, often for a month at a time, they were happy for us to have the extra perk. So, Tom, it begs the question, "Why would Lockheed NOT want their employees to have them as an extra perk? And, you've still not answered the original question, what did Lockheed [corporate] do with them? Throw them away?
Dave in Houston
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Tom Dacon wrote:

If I understand correctly, the frequent flier programs do not allow companies to benefit from those miles (I could be wrong, but seem to recall having read that policy several years ago). I certainly know that my employer does not expect those miles to be turned over to the company, but also does not condone people selecting airlines based upon frequent flier programs.
As far as using computer for personal business at work -- my employer has a written policy that such use is acceptable as long as it is on a non-interference basis with work.
--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
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A friend who works for the US Geological Survey told me he is not allowed to join a frequent flyer program.
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Not a question of ethics in some cases. Yes, I do use the computer at work for personal business, but I also use my computer at home for work. Rare, but I also get a phone call some evenings about a problem or I stop by the plant on a weekend. I can check some information about the building (temperature, humidity, etc) using GoToMyPC from home. The line between work and home get a little fuzzy at times.
When I got a free ticket on an airline for any destination in the US, my boss (the owner) said, "oh good, you can take your wife on the next trip. I'm paying for the room anyway so she should enjoy it too. Be sure to have a nice dinner."
Sorry that you've worked for a bunch of pricks in the past, but not every case of personal use is an ethics violation. I also call home every day from the company phone and take the company pickup if I need a truck. My work computer is loaded with many hours of personal music that I play during the day also on the speakers I bought with company money..
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Ed,
When I heard of "Cyber Monday", I thought of exactly the same thing you did-- how industry could be contributing to the degradation of the employer-employee relationship.
Personally, I do 2/3 of my work for my employer at home--and from home I do it using my own computer. Using the employers computer now is not much different than using the employers phone was in years past... There will always be some who take advantage of whatever system there is. I think that the real trick is finding a job that you want to do--and then the job will get done (the way it is supposed to be done, the way it ought to be done, and on time!). My job duties have little room for mediocrity. My employer doesn't mind if I look at a magazine after lunch... Lots of people are working harder than ever, but lots seem intent on doing as little as possible.... I feel that there is cause for concern (about our nation's work ethic).
Bill

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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Oh puhlease, every job I've had going back forty years had its share of slackers, and scads of people took advantage of perks like company cars, business meals and so on. Imagining that people only goofed-off on the job starting with the last generation or so and prior to that it was universal selfless nobility is nonsense.
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On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:02:24 -0800, the infamous "DGDevin"

There is also a thing called "down time", say, when an employee hands in a report and is waiting for the boss to read it and let them edit it, etc. They jump on the Internet and look for xmas presents while waiting, since they have nothing else to do for the company at the moment. This keeps the employee busy and their morale high. It's good for the company. When said employee has other business they could attend to but they spend company time online, that's an ethical breach.
-- Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.
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I have multiple computers. One is just for work. The others are all comingled in their function. My work day is often erratic, sometimes very busy and sometimes very slow. I mix and match all the time. My work does not suffer because I can educate/amuse myself during normal business hours.
I should also point out that I spend hours everyday doing research that directly supports the company. And I do this all hours of the day and night. If I didn't, I wouldn't have a job.
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I found that employees that watched the clock had the most to fear if caught doing a little personal business on company time. I also found the the employee that stayed until that days job was done regardless of what time the got off had the least to worry about.
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I forgot to mention that my normal hours are about 6:30AM to 5:30PM and average a weekend a month and have been known to do all-nighters. Yes, catching *any* flack for a little personal browsing would royally piss me off.
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On 11/29/2009 09:28 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I work "flex time", and I work from home. It's not unusual be asked to be available for a 7am meeting, or do some testing during a midnight lab shift or on a weekend because it's the only time the lab is available. Sometimes lunch is a sandwich while sitting at the computer.
If I spend some time during the day ordering something online, I see no problems.
If it gets excessive, then it's worth worrying about.
Chris
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I went the other way, buying my own computer to do things for work quicker, easier and in many cases that couldn't be done with the computer and software provided by my employer. Management got wind of this and I was accused of makingn unauthorized purchases and was using unauthorized software. When I told them I'd bought the computer and software, out of my own pocket, so that I could do things for my job I couldn't do with their "office computers" - actually terminals to a main frame - they were shocked - and confused. Spent a good deal of my time and money getting around their constraints and spent the last 15 years of my working career telecommuting three or four days a week.
Got a new boss who insisted that computers were tools, not toys, and you worked on computers and must not see it as play, even if the results were the same. He insisted that I work IN the office Monday through Friday. I said "Fine - but I'm only working 8 am to 5 pm, Monday through Friday. Anything over that had to go on the books as overtime - at time and a half, double time on holidays. And he needed to call all the consultants I worked with an notify them that they were no longer to call me after normal working hours or on weekends."
By the end of the first week he'd gotten a lot of calls from consultants complaining about their projects being delayed because they couldn't call me at home at 10 pm on a week night or up to midnight on weekends to get things they needed or send me draft reports to review and comment on by the next day.
When he finally figured out he was getting 40 hours of work out of me a week - IN the office - and 50 or 60 hours a week - from home (the extra 20 hours being free since they didn't get put on my time card - he let me return to my telecommuting. He never could figure out why I'd put in extra hours - "'cause it's interesting and fun!" was incomprehensible to him.
So - at least for me - it was the opposite of what seems to be the norm in the new work environment.
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This started because someone noted a surge on Mondays because many had dial-up access at home, and higher speeds at work.
So they gave it a label. I wonder if on-line sales today will be heavier that Friday.
I saw a lot of on-line sales Friday.
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

I wouldn't bet on it.
However, what has changed, or has been lost along the way, is the _stigma_ attached to unethical behavior and cheating.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
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