OT bad experience today

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Well, where I live in upstate NY, the whitetail deer is an extremely dangerous animal and considered by some to be a very real threat to human existence. It is for this very reason, and the deep and abiding concern I hold for my fellow man that I devote myself unselfishly to the annual pursuit of this animal in the name of eradicating this particular threat to humanity.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com
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Okay, some things :-) But labeling a whole breed of dog as dangerous is still arrogant.
--RC
Doug Winterburn wrote:

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Rick Cook wrote:

It's not if they really are dangerous. In fact, it wouldn't be arrogant even if they're not. There's a difference between being wrong and being arrogant, at least sometimes.
-Peter De Smidt
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    Greetings and Salutations....
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:16:41 -0700, Doug Winterburn

    LOL! a good point...however, again, apples and cantelopes. All those are wild animals...not ones that have thousands of years of close association with humans and the domesticating effects thereof.
    Regards     Dave Mundt
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I realize it verges on tasteless to introduce facts into an off-topic argument in this newsgroup, but if anyone is interested, here are some references on the 'dangers' of pit bulls that I turned up in a quick google search.
An article on pit bulls and the problems involved in pit bull rescue. http://www.forpitssake.org/chronicle.html
A FAQ on what pit bulls are really like http://www.pbrc.net/misc/pbrcbrochure.pdf
A report on an Alabama Supreme Court ruling finding no evidence pit bulls are inherently more dangerous than other breeds. http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/dogholocaust/ourdogs18.html
Long experience with pit bulls. http://www.richardfstratton.com/main.htm
A good discussion of pit bulls and aggression. http://www.goodpooch.com/MediaBriefs/GPpitbulls.htm (IMHO, this source makes too much of the fatality statistics. While pit bulls probably less likely to attack a human than other breeds, there is no question that a pit bull's strength and quickness means it can do a lot more damage when it does attack.)
Swingman wrote:

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On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 07:00:02 GMT, Rick Cook

I know you love pit-bulls, and from the fervor you're showing in defending them, and the links you've gone through the trouble to find, I've no doubt that you have good dogs. I've no doubt that your friends are good dog-owners as well. You've probably never met a pit bull you didn't like- believe it or not, I get it.
On the other hand, I have never met a responsible pit bull owner. I'm not saying that there are none, or even that it is very uncommon- but it is not possible to draw a conclusion that is completely inconsistant with every experience you've ever had. If I were to tell you Black and Decker made THE BEST woodworking tools on earth, and posted links to pictures of masterfully crafted furniture, and hundreds of testimonials saying the same, would you believe me? Even though your experience had shown you that that brand was inadequate for almost every task you tried to apply it to? Could you change your mind because I said so, or because someone put up a website that said so?
I don't want to prevent anyone from owning dogs of any breed. I just would like to see those dogs taken care of properly. If you have a pit bull, and love it as a part of your family, great. Just don't assume that it acts the same when you are not around, and let the animal go roaming about the neighborhood. That's all I or anyone else has the right to ask of you. Do what you like on your own property- hell, keep an elephant in your backyard and an alligator in your bathtub for all I care. But if said elephant steps on my car, don't expect your assertion that the elephant is a noble, wise and gentle creature to change the fact that I can't get to work that day! And don't expect the fact that not all pit bulls are the devil incarnate to change the fact that it is damn scary when a muscular, viscious animal corners you in your own yard.
I've got a friendly little pooch that doesn't seem to be a danger to anything but table scraps, but I don't let him wander around on his own- not only because he could be a danger to someone who is strange to him, but also because he lacks the discernment to look both ways before crossing the street, or to prevent himself from crapping in the neighbor's yard. So the breed of dog is not all bad; fine, I'll agree to that- but the overwhelming tendancy in my experience is for the wrong kind of people to adopt that breed, and that- more than anything else, is what makes them dangerous. I've seen other kinds of dogs cause problems, but all of those others put together do not add up to even 1/10 of the trouble I have personally witnessed when a pit bull is present. The statistics [in the link another poster provided] show that pit-bulls and rottweilers (which I have seen to be friendly, gentle dogs) cause over 50% of all dog-related deaths. There must be *something* there, even if the statistics are skewed.
You could argue that not all bites lead to death, and you would be right. I don't have any statistics showing the tendancy of each breed of dog to bite- but for my buck, I'd rather get a superficial flesh wound from a spaniel than be killed by a pit bull.
Again, I do not believe that people should be prevented from owning pit bulls- I just don't want them growling at me on my property. That's all.
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Prometheus wrote:

I would say that the responsible pit bull owners far out-number the irresponsible owners. But that doesn't mean the irresponsible/psycho owners don't exist and that they don't produce some very dangerous dogs. (Hell, there are creeps out there who fight their dogs.) As I say, some people shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish.
But those are the owners, not the breed.

No one should let their dog of any breed run around loose. That is irresponsible and dangerous to the dog and everyone else. Dogs that run loose tend to have real short life spans. I can't understand how anyone who claims to care for a dog can allow it.

Well, if the dog is viscous, it's not going to be moving very fast. :-) Seriously, being confronted by any dog that is acting aggressively is scary. It shouldn't happen and it is a sign of an irresponsible owner to let a dog run loose.
The fact that are no inherently dangerous breeds doesn't mean there aren't any dangerous dogs.

Don't confuse dog-related deaths with dog bite incidents. Problems with identification aside, dogs like Rotts and pit bulls are strong, fast animals and when they do bite they tend to do a lot of damage. I'm not surprised they account for a disproportionate number of deaths. But apparently, as best we can judge from the dog bite reports, the _number_ of biting incidents pretty much tracks the popularity of the breed.

You should not have to tolerate _any_ dog growling on your property. Any dog that does is a candidate for removal -- either by animal control in a reasonably well-policed county or by more direct means if you don't have that option.
--RC
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You are probably correct, but you can't prove it by my real life experience. I've known of a half dozen pit bulls that are downright vicious. So are their owners. I just don't happen to know of any good dogs and good owners no matter how many exist.
The Pit Bull has become a status symbol for punks, gander members and other unsavory character. Cruise through a major city in the "lesser" neighborhoods and you will see them. The hoodlum wannabe walking his pet pit bull. He may not be able to flaunt a gun, so he does the next best thing for status.
IIRC correctly, the dog in Our Gang Comedy was a pit bull. Dobermans are also docile when bred properly, nasty when not. Probably other breeds too.
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That's the key. Owner's the influence.
We've a large but well-behaved German shepherd, and some of my daughter's college friends from Chicago wouldn't come close even when he was showing all the "friendly" signs. Reason was "where we come from the only people who have dogs like that are people who want vicious dogs."
Personally, I believe the larger the dog, the better he must behave.

other
too.
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This entire thread boarders on a religious war so I was going to stay out of the thick of it, but at one point while reading all of the overstatements on both sides of the issue the thought did occur to me that it was not that long ago that German Shepherds and Dobermans were spoken of exactly the way the Pit Bull is today. Especially the Doberman - it was common folk lore and fire talk to rag on how they turned on their owners with no warning or provocation. Stay tuned - someone is yet bound to introduce the Rottweiller into this thread...
--

-Mike-
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eminem responded reasonably -

el correcto... as the owner of a number of dobies over the past 20+ years, friend of many others, and having known a number of rottweilers, etc, i know there are all kinds of factors which determine a dog's personality, how it will *tend* to react in various stressful situations, and how it *might* react under extreme situations...
dogs are people too: they have definite individual personalities, quirks, habits, and tendencies; our training, discipline and interaction can all obviously influence how their personalities are expressed...
of course, *any* breed can be made more viscious if that character trait is bred for (purposefully, or as a result of coexisting with some other trait being bred for), or trained for... obviously, the bigger/stronger/ more agressive breeds are going to make that much more of a threat when they 'go bad'...
i'd be willing to bet dollars to donut holes that there are *really* far more dog bites from chihuahua's than any other breed; its just that while 90% of the doberman/etc bites may get reported in some fashion, i bet 90% of the chihuahua 'bites' don't get reported because A. it's embarassing B. what's to report ? ow, i got four little dents on my ankle...
some of the most consistently agressive, badly behaved, and snappy dogs i have met, are the yipyap breeds; the thing is, because they can be swept aside with your foot, their 'agression' is not as threatening as a pit/dobie/etc, and thus is often not recognized as the nasty behavior it is...
some very few dogs are just born mean, a bunch more are made mean by willful or casual mistreatment, and *any* dog -regardless of training- can 'go postal' if it is in circumstances where it feels threatened and can't escape...
same goes for people...
dogs is people too...
charley
eof
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Saw a neighbor lose a finger to a Chihuahua. We were both drinking home made applejack at the time so he felt relatively little pain. I had a hard time keeping a straight face in the ER.
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snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com says...

According to dog breeders I've spoken to, the Doberman was once bred for agressiveness. I certainly remember them that way from my (long ago) childhood. But in the last few decades, the agressiveness has been deliberately bred out of them. The few I've met recently have certainly been a lot friendlier than the ones long ago.
The same may apply to the German Sheperd - I don't know about them.
But I do have a question - what is a pit bull? What were they bred from? I'm familiar with bull terriers, but the dogs I've seen called pit bulls look more like a boxer/Rottweiler mix. They weren't around in my earlier years.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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You must be pretty old indeed.
http://www.workingpitbull.com/informationservices.htm
Oh yes, answer to your childish plaint is still the same - in the minds of the perpetrators.

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You "conservatives" are really reaching since even President Bush has admitted that there were no stockpiles. If he can admit that, why can't you?
I suppose you're one of those who also think Saddam was responsible for 9/11.
I've given up arguing the facts. The signature will stay till after the election.
Oh yes, thanks for the pit bull reference. As I responded to Rick, I'm familiar with most of those breeds. But the "game bred" dogs shown on the site are close to what's called a pit bull around here. Add a little height and weight and shorten the muzzle and that's it.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Pit bulls (AKA American Bull Terriers) were bred from medium size terriers with a large admixture of bulldogs of various sorts, plus anything else that looked like it would be an advantage for dog fighting -- or so the commonly accepted story goes. According to that version, they were gradually developed after bull baiting became impractical/outlawed in urban areas in the United States and was replaced by the 'sport' of dog fighting.
Pit bulls were bred for strength, speed and 'gameness' -- the unwillingness to quit -- as well as to be handleable since the owners had to separate them repeatedly in the fighting pit. They were specifically not bred for aggression or 'viciousness', although aggression was trained into the fighting dogs later. As a breed their outstanding mental traits seem to be a willingness to do anything to please their owners and the unwillingness to quit.

Actually pit bulls have been around for at least 150 years, as best we can judge. They show up commonly in art from around the turn of the 20th century and were widely used as mascots and symbols of American fighting forces about the time of World War II and were also common in early movies. "Petey", the Little Rascals dog, was a pit bull.
All that said, there is a lot of confusion about 'what is a pit bull'. At one extreme you have people who call any medium or large, short-muzzled dog that bites a 'pit bull'. (I have seen the term applied to a Bedlington Terrier in a TV news story!) There are also people who lump a number of distinct breeds, such as ABTs (true 'pit bulls'), English Bull Terriers, English Staffordshire Terriers, and several others as 'pit bulls'. At the other you have the people who apply the term only to ABTs used for fighting.
General use is to apply the term 'pit bull' only to American Bull Terriers, which are recognized as a breed by some kennel clubs (but not the AKC). You can go on their web sites and find breed descriptions.
Those are good questions, btw. They held define what it is we're talking about here.
--RC

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snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com says...

Thanks Rick. But I'm familiar with those breeds. And you're right, they're often called pit bulls.
But the pit bull photos I see in Spokane show a larger dog. They don't have the sloped nose of the bull terrier and they're bigger than the Staffordshires. Oh well, probably just another case of mistaken naming. I think the ones I'm talking about are crossbreeds.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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I suspect also a considerable lack of nerve endings close to the surface. My former Pit Bull/Boxer seemed impervious to pain. She walked into the kitchen one night with one of the cats hanging from her lower lip by its fangs. All 8 pounds of cat just swaying back and forth and that 'can somebody get this cat offa me' look. She was one of the gentlest dogs I've ever owned, but she was never off the leash off our property and, though she was well trained, if we saw other animals on a walk I literaly tied the leash to my arm. She did not suffer other creatures off the property.
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Lobby Dosser wrote:

ROF,LVH. Poor long-suffering dog. But that _is_ funny, especially in light of the prior content of the thread, which would attempt to convince us any dog that had ever even _seen_ a pit bull would eat the cat and look for more.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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says...

I think a Boxer/Rottweiler mix would produce a dog roughly 3 times larger than a Pitt Bull. I put them on the large end of the small sized dog group or small end of the medium sized dog group. I have a small female Chocolate Lab that is larger than the typical Pitt Bull.
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