# O/T: Pirate Rifles

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• posted on April 18, 2009, 5:49 am

With an accurized weapon and hand loads maybe, and then only with the help of a bench rest. Sub-MOA is difficult to achieve even at that short range. Your target size equates to 21 seconds of arc.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 1:29 pm

If you're talking about the "short range" being the 25 yards at which the pirates were shot, and the "target size" being a human head, you need to check your math -- it's 21 *minutes* of arc.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 4:27 pm

No, I was talking about the March Hare and his bowtie. WTF? Do you not read? The response was to the simplicity of hitting a quarter at 100 yds, a 3/4" round target at 3600 inches.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 5:36 pm

Don't feed The Miller Troll. He thrives on this sort of shit. He lies in the bushes until somebody misplaces a comma, and he pounces. He appears to have no other life.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 6:04 pm

OK, I might be wrong about a quarter. I meant 1" circle that is 1 MOA. It is easily achieved with either of my two PSL-54C rifles without any accurizing and using cheap Bulgarian surplus ammo still available at \$85/tin. Sure one would need a bench rest to do this.
But that is not to start a discussion about sub-MOA shooting and handloading. This is just to illustrate that 25 yards head shot in absolutely nothing to write home about even using cheap civilian weapon with cheap ammo.
--
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 1:46 am

Obviously I read it; how else would I have become aware that what you wrote was ambiguous?

BTW, you *still* need to check your math.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 11:32 am

Someone said they used gyros on the rifles for stabilization.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 12:14 pm
Maxwell Lol wrote:

That was a reporter who likely got something or other garbled. Or maybe it wasn't snipers at all, maybe they tagged them with a Phalanx--don't know if it can fire single rounds or not but the latest ones do have surface attack capability as well as antiair.
The Navy does have stabilized mounts for weapons down to 7.62mm or smaller but they aren't sniper rifles.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 1:01 pm
Maxwell Lol wrote:

Yeah, and here's where the SEALs get really high marks. Imagine the skill necessary to attach a fair-sized gyroscope to the underside of the pirate's boad!
As for sniping, you might enjoy the following excerpt from a Lee Childs book:
--- begin quote
First thing out of the barrel of Reacher's Barrett was a blast of hot gas. The powder in the cartridge exploded in a fraction of a millionth of a second and expanded to a super-heated bubble. That bubble of gas hurled the bullet down the barrel and forced ahead of it and around it to explode out into the atmosphere. Most of it was smashed sideways by the muzzle brake in a perfectly balanced radial pattern, like a doughnut, so that the recoil moved the barrel straight back against Reacher's shoulder without deflecting it either sideways or up or down. Meanwhile, behind it, the bullet was starting to spin inside the barrel as the rifling grooves grabbed at it.
Then the gas ahead of the bullet was heating the oxygen in the air to the point where the air caught fire. There was a brief flash of flame and the bullet burst out through the exact center of it, spearing through the burned air at nineteen hundred miles an hour. A thousandth of a second later, it was six feet away, and its sound was bravely chasing after it, three times slower.
The bullet took five hundredths of a second to cross the [parade ground], by which time the sound of its shot had just passed Reacher's ears and cleared the ridge of the roof. The bullet had a hand-polished copper jacket and it was flying straight and true, but by the time it had passed soundlessly over McGrath's head it had slowed a little. And the air was moving it. It was moving it right to left as the gentle mountain breeze tugged imperceptibly at it. Half a second into its travel, the bullet had covered thirteen hundred feet and it had moved seven inches to the left.
And it had dropped seven inches. Gravity had pulled it in. The more gravity pulled, the more the bullet slowed. The more it slowed, the more gravity deflected it. It speared onward in a perfect graceful curve. A whole second after leaving the barrel, it was nine hundred yards into its journey. Way past McGrath's running figure, but still over the trees, still three hundred yards short of its target. Another sixth of a second later, it was clear of the trees and alongside the office building. Now it was a slow bullet. It had pulled four feet left and five feet down. It passed well clear of Holly and was twenty feet past her before she heard the hiss in the air. The sound of the shot was still to come.
Reacher's bullet hit Borken in the head a full second and a third after he fired it. It entered the front of his forehead and was out of the back of his skull three ten-thousandths of a second later. In and out without really slowing much more at all, because Borken's skull and brains were nothing to a two-ounce lead projectile with a needle point and a polished metal jacket. The bullet was well over the endless forest beyond before the pressure wave built up in Borken's skull and exploded it.
Reacher was watching it through his scope. Heart in his mouth. A full second and a third is a long time to wait. He watched Borken's skull explode like it had been burst from the inside with a sledgehammer. It came apart like a diagram. Reacher saw curved shards of bone bursting outward and red mist blooming.
--- end quote
You can read one of Child's books online at leechild.com.
Then you'll go buy the rest.
And before you say "What does an ex-British lawyer know about sniping?" remember the similar question "What the fuck does a real estate broker in Virginia know about global submarine warfare?" That question was asked by every major publisher in declining "The Hunt for Red October." Clancey's book was eventually published by the Naval Institute Press, whose last big seller was a tabulation of tide tables for Hudson Bay, 1886-87.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 18, 2009, 6:30 pm

Pure writer's crap.
nb

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 4:14 am
notbob wrote:

Um, probably not. This same story was posted on a guns newsgroup. Respondents agreed the only area where there might have been a problem was in the beginning when Childs said "The powder in the cartridge exploded in a fraction of a millionth of a second..."
Some experts said that was an exaggeration and others said, depending on the powder load, it was just barely possible.
If you have experience or information tending to refute the physics in the story, please feel free to share. Otherwise, just enjoy the story.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 6:28 am

It was schlock writing in the first degree. BAD poetic license and over the top exageration for the video game crowd. Exactly what is a "fraction of a millionth"? Nothing you can pin down, just like the rest of the article. Hand polished bullets? Air catching on fire? What horse crap.

I'd be up the rest of the night.
nb

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 12:24 pm
notbob wrote:

I agree that the writing was not the best. The author could have spent more time on the smells wafting along on the gentle breeze he mentioned and, like any good romance novel, he could have told us more about what each of the actors was wearing and what each protagonist thought about the clothing of the others.
One-tenmillionth of a second is a "fraction of a millionth" of a second. Sniper bullets ARE hand polished (and hand-loaded and micked to tolerances of less than 1/1000ths of an inch). I don't know about the "air on fire" business, but I suppose super-heated air can do odd things.
Anyway, you don't have to stay up the rest of the night. Just find a reference or two that snipers use production-grade bullets, that .50 caliber bullets don't begin detonation in less than a millionth of a second, or that there are no flames exiting the barrel.
------ The velocity of solid explosives can exceed 390,000 fps. Assuming 2" of powder in a .50cal cartridge, all the powder could burn in
2 / 12 /390,000 = 4 ten-millionths of a second (note this is less than "a millionth of a second).
That seems to be close to the minimum burn time.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 1:38 pm

So is one hundredth or 5 hundred and forty seven thousandths of a millionth. Which is it?

Only by self deluded comic book droolers. Not even benchrest shooters are that lame. They polish the barrel and coat the bullets.

You "suppose" the writer might be exaggerating jes a tad for effect?

You find 'em. I got better things to do. Oh, and another one... I'll guaran-damn-tee you no shooter views the target being hit through his scope after launching a Ma Duece round from a shoulder fired weapon. But, go ahead and live the fantasy.
nb

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 2:39 pm

The upper limit is obviously a millionth, anfd this value is less.
So in other words, it's equivalent to saying "in less than a millionth of a second" which is a measurable number. And that ls all thatr matters.

That's a cop-out. I know nothing, but your credibility is very low when you argue like this.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 3:35 pm
Maxwell Lol wrote:

The thing is that there are discussions that merit putting in some research effort and there are some that do not.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 20, 2009, 1:00 pm

Jeez, what a lot of swamp gas over something so similr. If you read the books about Carlos Hathcock, you'll run across the tale of him setting a scope on a big .50 MG, using it single shot, and snipping at ranges that would give a ghost the creeps...or make more ghosts.
As time passed, weapons improved, but, jeez. hand-polished bullets when you're up to your ass in jungle, wading through streams, crawling in mud, sweating fear bullets, using your clothing as a toilet to keep from having to move, staring down poisonous snakes...nah. Same for all the millionth of a second shit. Gunpowder burns, slow or fast, it burns, but not that fast. I enjoy Childs' books, but it's time to bring in that "willing suspsension of disbelief" when you KNOW he's full of crap. He's another writer who either has never been in a fight, or hasn't since childhood. I laughed my ass of with Dan Brown's tales of fights in his best seller, but it was bad enough I couldn't finish the book. Childs isn't that bad, but for a Brit, he doesn't do too badly with U.S. weapons--most of the time.
The story of Hathcock working a counter-sniper tactic hunting down a VN sniper and finally nailing him--with a bullet right through the optics of the enemy sniper's scope as he was aiming at Hathcock--is a classic, and well illustrates the lack of the likelihood of perfect weapons and ammunition, but the abilities of a single man on a mission, with a lot of experience and a lot of expertise.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 4:25 pm

How can one argue such bizarre logic?
nb

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 20, 2009, 10:21 am

Simple. I can detect bullshit and boasting, and lack of real information. I can also detect ah hominem attacks.

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<%-name%>
• posted on April 19, 2009, 2:02 pm
HeyBub wrote:

Well, for openers, if flames exit the barrel that pretty much negates his millionth of a second as the powder would have been entirely consumed before the bullet left the muzzle thus no flames.
Watch high speed photos and you'll see no flames coming out until the bullet leaves the muzzle.
As for snipers and "production grade bullets", define "production grade". If you mean Chinese Army rejects, no, they don't use those. If you mean Sierra match grade, they do use those, or did a while back.

So what? Gunpowder is not "solid explosives", it is a propellant. In an ideal cartridge, grain dimensions and composition would be adjusted to sustain for the entire duration of the bullet's passage through the barrel the highest pressure that the firearm could tolerate. Burning all the powder in a millionth of a second would be very inefficient in that it would produce a pressure spike with rapid decline as the volume behind the bullet increased.

Which is not relevant to the real world.

It's also totally unrealistic for a real-world firearm.