Norm Vs. Marks

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I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things people get dressed behind. The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane. The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels finished in tung oil.
Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
anyhoo, -Bruce
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"Bruce Rowen" wrote in message

The effete in LaLa Land would probably tell you that Mark's "art" is worthy of a "studio", Norm's "projects" come out of a "shop". ;>)
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Both hide your bare butt from passers-by?

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George wrote:

Yep! If it was me I'd just staple some bed sheets to the ceiling 8^)
My wife watched both episodes with me and commented that Norms creation looked good but was a bit "blocky". She usually hates the Marks creations (doesn't like his color choices) but thought his screen looked good. I was a bit surprised he didn't cover up the screw heads though...
-Bruce
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Can't comment on Mark's as I haven't seen it. Norm I caught by accident, it was on at the parents, that's my excuse. IMHO comparing Norm's screen to the antique his was based on, the antique has much nicer proportions. The original had panels that were narrower, giving it an elegance that was lacking in the repro. I'd like to see the measurements for them both and compare.
Jeffo
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wrote:
|I caught two episodes back to back that really show off the differences |between David Marks and Norm. Both were making "screens", the things |people get dressed behind. |The Norm creation was Mahogany with brass hinges finished with some red |stain and if I recall correctly a durable coat of polyurethane. |The Marks creation had an ebonized maple frame with lacewood panels |finished in tung oil. | |Electric versus meat powered tools were about even however. Marks used a |hand plane and Norm actually used a Yankee screwdriver.
I guess Marks is on cable or satellite, neither of which I get. I do get Norm for free, so I guess it's another case of getting what you pay for [G].
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The time I compared Mark to Norm I was chastised as being a troll. Watch yourself.
While I liked Norms screen, I found Dave's a little more attractive due to the color choices. If I were to build my own I'd make 'em look like shoji.
In this particular case it's a strictly a choice of style. It's a horse apiece.
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Bruce Rowen wrote:

There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster, more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the shop and I need to work up a sweat.
I don't think the purists really want to go back to the "good old days" where you chopped a tree down, bucked it with a hand saw, barked it with a spud, made planks with the pit saw (want to be on the bottom?), thicknessed the planks with your scrub plane, flattened them with your smooth plane, chopped all of your mortises and tenons with various chisels, and finally got to the point where you could clamp up your project. Man! It could take all day just to make a dresser!
Let's just let up on Norm's use of power tools and admit that we like at least some of them (e.g., a planer). The only real advantage to being a complete Neander is that I don't think I ever saw an old photograph that had a fat woodworker in it. My gut would appreciate a little more handwork, even if my arms wouldn't.
--
Hitch

-Remove the NOSPAM from my address and you've got SPAM!-
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Hitch wrote: <snip>

Another aspect of the difference between Norm & Marks is that Norm's projects are geared towards weekend warriors. The vast majority of his projects are presented as being a single version completed in two days. That time constraint also necessitates the use of power tools and the relative absence of jigs.
Marks' work, in contrast, is not presented in a two day completion format. His extensive use of patterns and jigs also suggest that many copies of each piece will be produced. Marks is probably still making a living as a woodworker. (He is probably making another living on TV :) )
It will be interesting to see how Marks will alter his presentation over time as co-marketing opportunities present themselves. Norm is a crafty old hand at squeezing project construction techniques and methods into the tools and products of his paid sponsors.
Tim
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An article on his website indicates that the show has consumed his complete time/attention.
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It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time for the manufacturers.
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    Greetings and Salutations.
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:00:59 GMT, Brian Henderson

    And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all, look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept that on even after Delta had discontinued it....     As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has. There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's enjoy both the shows!     Regards     Dave Mundt
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@esper.com (Dave Mundt) wrote:
|    Greetings and Salutations. | |On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:00:59 GMT, Brian Henderson
|>>There sure are a lot of Norm disparagers. One of their biggest |>>complaints is that he uses a power tool for just about every task, and |>>that makes him a mechanic instead of a craftsman. Well, I like the |>>power tools I have and am unashamed of them. They do the jobs faster, |>>more easily, and in some cases, much, much better than I can or care to |>>with my hand tools. I can't easily joint a couple of boards as quickly |>>or easily as I can with my tablesaw and jointer, but sometimes I do it |>>by hand anyway because I want to work quietly, or maybe it's cold in the |>>shop and I need to work up a sweat.|> |>It isn't really that Norm uses power tools, but that he goes out of |>his way to use power tools to the exclusion of all else. He'll use a |>power tool even if it's easier to use a hand tool. The reason, of |>course, is that the tool manufacturers are paying for the show so |>he'll do the Tim Allen "MORE POWER" thing just to get more air time |>for the manufacturers.| |    And actually, it got to the point that even HE joked about |it on the air. I recall him making wry remarks about using a |utility knife, and a dovetail saw on different episodes. I don't |know how "manufacturer driven" the show is...I do know that the |stuff that he seems to LIKE stays on there for a long time |and the tools that don't work well disappear quickly. After all, |look at his compound Miter saw, with the laser pointer. He kept |that on even after Delta had discontinued it.... |    As I have said before, I like Norm and his show, and, I |think they occupy a valuable place in the world. Not only |does it show folks that it is possible to do it, and, might |generate interest in the hobby, but, it helps as a benchmark |for how long a project might take, and, how many steps it has. |There is room for both Marks and Abram on the air...and let's |enjoy both the shows!
I got to chat with TOH's former host, Steve Thomas once. (Even have his autographed book around here someplace.)
When asked about the show using materials that no one else could afford and so forth, he replied that we must keep it in context, and not forget that it's a "Television Show" and that means "Entertainment for the average viewer."
I watch Norm and am entertained. I doubt that I would ever build one of his projects. I'm in Tucson and most of his furniture will never be at home in my house, and I 'm damn sure not going to put a garden bench in my cactus patch.
Likewise after watching TOH I won't be laying any $10/sq ft Vermont Bluestone slabs outside either. Brick pavers to match the floors in the house maybe. And I don't have much trouble with ice dams either.
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how 'bout Norm and Marks = don't they both have something we can gain from??
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@esper.com (Dave Mundt) wrote:

Why wouldn't he? With no intent on his part, his name, in the woodworking world of the internet, has become synonymous with the use of power tools. I'd probably have some fun with that, too. By the way, for all the heat he takes about the use of power tools, he has used a surprising array of hand tools a surprising number of times. My site has a "neanderthal" section for most of those tools-without-tails he's used.

He has stated that several times. Not so much LIKE (although I'm sure that's part of it) but that stand up to the use of a pro environment. Some interesting examples:
* He always seems to return to the Lamello biscuit joiner, even after having used a DeWalt and both Porter-Cables. He even used the second P-C on the same episode as the Lamello.
* He has used the P-C brad nailer a few times but he keeps going back to the Senco SLP20.
* He has used the Bosch jigsaw since the beginning of the second season despite the appearances of both Hitachi and P-C jigsaws a couple of times.
* The Makita D-handle router stayed in view on a regular basis for SEVEN years after the P-C 691 D-handle first appeared.
* He flipped back and forth on the Biesemeyer fence (after using the Unifence for five seasons).
* Even though he generally uses the Leigh dovetail jig, he has trotted out the Omnijig on several occasions.
* It's amazing how many different planers he's used. Ryobi, Makita, Hitachi, Powermatic, four Deltas, and one I never could identify. There has been quite a bit of overlap in their appearances.
On my website I arbitrarily set a threshold of 50 appearances of a tool on NYW to get into my "Hall of Fame" (my site; I get to set the threshold). In the 15+ seasons the show has been on, over 280 tools have been used in nearly 200 episodes, and only 20 of them have made my Hall.
Interestingly, eight of those twenty are/were not made by Delta/Porter-Cable. I guess that sort of settles the question about manufacturer driven, at least as far as the actual sponsors go.
I'm sure the Timesavers sander is there for the promotional value, but they (Timesavers) certainly have to understand that the target audience of NYW isn't going to be a huge source of sales for them.
Other, lesser tools like the Jack Rabbit drill/driver, the Lamello, and the Senco brad nailer (two of those are non-sponsor HoFers) might produce more revenue generating value from their use.
But at the end of the day, I think a lot of his tool use is in spite of manufacturer input. I think the Bosch jigsaw is the best example. He's used it for 15 years. With all the shop rash, it looks like the same one (although I know for sure he's gotten at least one newer one). If Bosch was really promoting it, you'd think he'd get a new one every season or so.

Just a miter saw; not compound.

Nine seasons, as a matter of fact, and it was a Porter-Cable, not a Delta. The new one is a Delta (and compound), however.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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They've got one out (a newer version?) and they advertise it as the one that Norm uses...
I've heard some positive comments about the newer one without the laser, but with the double bevel and the crown stops.
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Of course, the original miter saw with Laser was PC, not a Delta
John
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:53:06 -0600, p snipped-for-privacy@postzzzmark.net (p_j) wrote:

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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:32:14 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@esper.com (Dave Mundt) wrote:

There was an episode of This Old House where they went back to the shop to make a door and they were making jokes about all the power tools he was using there too. We all know that the tools on Norm's show are on 'loan' from the companies that sponsor the show, unlike David Marks' show where he owns them all and has no financial link to any of the manufacturers.

I do enjoy both shows, but as time has gone on, I've found less interest in tool-centric Norm and his weekend warrior projects and more in the David Marks style show where you learn craftsmanship rather than shooting brads like they're going out of style. Certainly there is room for both shows and both hosts are good people, certainly better than the wood butchery of another Min-Wax Mastermind I could name.
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:30:57 GMT, Brian Henderson

I'm not sure that's entirely true. Watching the show from the beginning it was clear that the early Elu, Craftsman, Makita, Bostich, and other tools were certainly not new, suggesting ownership by either Norm or Russell Morash.
Over the years there have been several other tools that appear to have that same genesis, e.g. the Rockwell jointer and the Powermatic planer, just to name a couple. Even the original Unisaw was an old Rockwell. I think Delta's acquisition of Rockwell predated the first NYW, so where did it come from? I'm not saying they're all owned by the show, but they certainly aren't all "loaners."

So does tools-on-loan somehow diminish the value of Norm's product? It's not like it's a RotoZip informercial. Just off the top of my head, I don't think I've ever heard Norm call a tool by its brand name. That contrasts sharply with Boob Vila constantly inserting the manufacturer's name of every tool (and product) that's being used on his show.

Geez if you watch a typical 24 minute episode of NYW and all you come away with is the few seconds of brad nailer use, you're missing a whole lot of craftsmanship and other good ideas.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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I agree, I've learned a ton of things from Norm. In fact, I wasn't really into woodworking prior because all I really knew were but joints and screws. I'm not saying that I'm a craftsman now . . but I'm allot further ahead than I was before watching him do all of the basic things several times.
Don
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