no more Jet for me

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On 2/27/2015 1:45 PM, Leon wrote:

FWIW here are a couple of pictures of a piece of red oak that I resawed with a common 1/2" blade on the Laguna.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/16045460183/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/16477811218/in/photostream/
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:20:04 -0600

Nice cuts, like i said i was surprised to learn that could be done with a bandsaw
with that kind of precision it really is a new tool and leaves the previous designs in the dust
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On 2/28/2015 8:43 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

I really don't think it is a new tool so much as one that is just not on the typical woodworkers radar. Some of these Italian companies have been building saws for close to 90 years. These Italian saws are extremely stout and have a lot of mass. Not totally unlike comparing a contractors TS to and industrial cabinet saw. Very little vibration out of the HD saws so cuts are better.
Anyway the over all stiffness of the saw is important and especially if you use the wider resaw blades. While most saws being sold can handle 1/2" blades with out problems when you start using the wider blades you really have to crank the tension up. One of my blades is 1.25" wide and a non HD saw is going to give to that tension and will not hold that tension well. One of the reasons that constant tweaking from day to day or hour to hour is necessary. If the back bone gives to the tension the guides are going to be out of adjustment, tracking can be off, and tensioning has to be closely monitored. I relatively never have to readjust anything unless I change blades. Tracking is almost never readjusted regardless of blade size or tension.
IMHO the Laguna guides are the best. While there is a lot going on with the Carter roller bearing guides, roller bearing guides are not not exclusive to Carter. As you probably know the Rikon has roller bearing guides and when I bought my 18" Rokin I thought that this all made sense. On paper the roller bearing guides look great! In reality, for me, they were a nightmare. FWIW my Rikon was the second generation version of the 18" saw. I found that if I was cutting oily woods and or wet woods the saw dust would stick to the bearings and or blade and would be "pounded" on to the blade and bearings. The noise and vibration went up considerably when cutting these woods. I literally spent more time cleaning bearings, blades, and making adjustments than cutting scraps. The ceramic guides OTOH scrape clean the blades, they are literally self cleaning and I have absolutely no issues that the roller guides introduced. With the Laguna guides the saw has two upper side guides on each side of the blade and two lowers side guides on each side of the blade. Laguna claims that the upper ceramic inserts in the top guide absorb most of the vibration of the blade as it comes off of the top wheel and the lower inserts in the top guide do the actual guiding of the blade to the lower guide assembly.
Anyway I went through all of this about 8 years ago when upgrading from a small Craftsman saw that I never used because of all the tweaking that was always necessary. I though I was going to eliminate that with the bigger Rikon but was totally dissatisfied. I bought that Rikon sight unseen so I bought it with the understanding that if it was not up to my expectations that I could return it, and that I did within 2 weeks. So at 2.5 times more expensive than the Rikon, at the time, and I had my Laguna and I highly recommend one of these Italian built saws if you want to spend more time cutting wood than repeatedly setting up and tweaking the saw.
The price I paid for my Laguna included the ResawKing blade, mobility kit, 4~5 more blades, and shipped.
One last thing, I originally ordered 3 or 4 Timberwolf blades for the Rikon. I had tracking issues with all but one. The blade that came with the Rikon tracked just fine as did a blade that I had make by a local supplier. Timberwolf bent over backwards to solve the issues including having me cut one of the blades to insure that it laid straight on the floor. They finally admitted that they were having issues with their blades working on the Rikon BS's. After getting the Laguna they graciously gave me credit for the blades that fit the Rikon and I bought the same but longer blades for the Laguna. I have not had any problems with any blades that I have used on the Laguna be it the ResawKing, the generic brands I have used, or the Timberwolfs. I highly suspect that the backbone of the Rikon was not up to the task of holding its tension on the wider blades thus creating tracking problems.
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:49:07 -0600

it's new from my perspective for sure

my saw won't have anything bigger than 1/2" and when it's adjusted right it cuts very well

The introduction of the ceramic guides seems to have been a big step in BS evolution

if my projects can pay for the tool i have no problem with spending more for good tools

back to the drawing board for Rikon or keep lowering the price or be an also-ran

bigger blades just don't work on all saws, simple physics the saw's got to be built to match the blade size
there's a guy that has a entire guide just for dealing with delta BS problems one of the problems he points out is that parts get bent because of over tensioning with blades that are too large for the saw
From somewhere I read about the delta BS guy but I can't recall his name now he has no website and you have to call him to get the guide
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On 3/1/2015 11:45 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

And there is the rub, ;~) Adjusted right on My Laguna can be a wide range of tolerance. It cuts well at just about any adjustment.

Yes but Laguna did not invent them, they have been around quite a while.

When I bought my projects were not coming close to paying but my patience was running out... It turns out that buying these better tools and equipment are in investment in my production. With these better tools I can build better and faster.

And that is not just if the blade will fit, wider blades will fit saws that simply can't handle the tension required. IIRC the Rikon would handle a 1" blade.

Exactly, as I mentioned above.

Probably Inturra Designs
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:17:12 -0600

seems to me that there's correct and incorrect adjustment you can't have something out of adjustment and have it work it stays adjusted or it doesn't i haven't adjusted mine since I put the 1/2" on it
you can't say "my saw's out of adjustment and still works fine"

the time savings for me isn't big enough to justify the expense

no of course it's not just if the blade will fit it is about the size of the drivetrain, etc.

that might be it I have the catalog pdf around somewhere an interesting read
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Well let's just say that you might have to fine tune to have good results. I only need roughly close to get good results. For instance one would think that you would need to tilt the top wheel to correct tracking when using different tension levels. Increasing tension on my saw does not change tracking. Basically my saw is not as touchy to get good results.

Understood.

The wider blade does not require more power. The thickness and hardness of the wood has more to do with the drivetrain. The wider blade does require more tension to insure it runs straight between the top and bottom wheels.

Yeah he has a lot of good advise and products.
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:18:40 -0600

roughly close doesn't make sense it's either adjusted or no I'll agree some saws are hard to keep adjusted and some aren't
bought mine used and cheap and it was hardly used I think the previous owner had no idea how to adjust the saw because it was really way off I figured it out and it's good and stable

it does because the tension means more force is needed but if the drivetrain isn't beefy enough things gets bad and a wider blade will not work in all aspects

it is iturra design
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I think what Leon is saying is adjustment isn't critical on a well-made saw. You don't have to get the blade tension just so, the blade cuts straight as long as the tension is close. You don't have to set the guides precisely, the blade tracks straight as long as they're close.
Having said that, I'm of the impression that the blade makes a lot more difference than the saw - some blades just work, and some you have to really fuss with the saw to get a good result.
John
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On 3/1/15 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:

That's been my experience. If you spend the time to make sure your wheels are coplaner, the blade is centered on the wheels, and you get the tension in range, the guides are almost not even needed.
--

-MIKE-

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On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:24:03 +0000 (UTC)

any saw has to be adjusted there's no saw where you put the blade on and do nothing else they require something
some take more adjustment some need readjustment from time to time some don't
pretty simple
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On 3/1/2015 7:12 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

Well actually the MiniMax rep swapped blades on the MM16, the demo saw that had no guides at all. All he had to do was retention the blade after changing it, and that was a single adjustment before he restarted the saw. Not totally unlike changing out a blade on a TS. Until you have actually worked with a saw of this caliber it is hard to understand how well they work. Sure you have to tension the blade but I use the built in gauge and that is good enough and you do have to adjust the guides to the width of the blade but tracking and blade tension is simply not a factor in the saw performing well. And while this is an adjustment it is a simple adjustment that requires no test cuts or tweaking.
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On 3/1/15, 9:21 PM, Leon wrote:

Agreed. I haven't touched the tracking adjustment on my MM16 since I first got it set correctly. After changing blades I just re-tension and set the guides (this is going between a 3/8" and 1").

All these tension gauges are simple spring compression meters, generally not very accurate. I set up my blades originally by measuring the blade stretch to calculate the proper tension. Once set, I made a new index mark on the saws tension gauge and just align to the mark when adjusting. On these saws the exact tension doesn't seem to be very critical, just ball-park it.
-BR

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On 3/1/2015 6:24 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Thank you John that is basically what I was trying to say. ;~) The fussier the saw the pickier the adjustment has to be.
And as for the blades though I found that any blade "so far" works well on the Laguna and not so much on a lesser saw. And that probably has to do with what you eloquently explained as adjustments not having to be just so.
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"Leon" wrote in message

I don't know what others have experienced but my 18" Jet is not fussy... with some minor tweaking of the tracking when installing a new blade the drift is zero. It's been a pleasure to work with. If I ever get to it I can mill bolts and short logs on my 36" 5 HP Crescent... the funny thing is I haven't really needed that saw to date but it's cool! LOL
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2015 13:45:35 -0600

they have a limit on the number of resharpens but it's 10 or so and that would last a long time unless the blade's abused and needed more sharpenings

but that alone can't have swayed you entirely
have not heard of minimax either will have to look

I see, can italian made BSs be bought in US?

makes sense but it also means a lot of engineering has to go into the wheels and axles, hence the higher price but that's ok
i do like to learn about what's out there and the state of the art but I will make do with what i have and i enjoy improvising improvising provides some challenges and sometimes leads to accidental insights that I'd have missed otherwise
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On 2/27/2015 9:20 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

Well that alone showed me what they thought about customer service. They knew what BS I was coming to see and indicated that so and so would show me that saw the following morning. and then that saw was missing its guides. Ultimately the 10 point ceramic guides that Laguna developed was the deal maker, and probably the Baldor motor.

Laguna, Minimax, Felder, Hammer, to name a few. In particular I was looking at the MiniMax MM16 BS.
I would say that all of the above except the MiniMax are probably built in the same Italian Factory, all being similar. The MiniMax is significantly different.

Yeah all of that stuff is incredibly robust. The wheels are solid iron and spin effortlessly and for quite a when unloaded.

Woodcraft and IIRC Rockler sell Laguna. Their floor models are not the HD series IIRC. Still those saws are/were still built in Europe but it seems to be the consensus that the better band saws are the Italian built ones. My LT16HD weighs 465 lbs.
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On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:57:53 -0600

the rikon sales people knew which saw was better so what else can they do
the ceramic guides seem to make a big difference

never heard of felder or hammer will have to look

interesting i hear that washers/dryers are made in only a few factories now

quiet is a good trait, noise is a good sign that something might not be right i track down noise all the time sometimes it's inherent sometimes it leads to loose pullys, dry belts, etc.

one day I'll upgrade but my wood products will have to pay for it
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I went through this process over a decade ago, trying to decide between the MiniMax (MM16) and Laguna. At the time, the MM was the clear winner, better saw and better customer service. The Laguna saws at the time were playing catchup, less capacity, power, and poorer table finish.
I luv my MM! The only changes I made were to dump the Euro guides after they began seizing and replace then with a used set of Carter bearing guides. Being an import, I spent many hours removing the cosmoline, but this gave me the time to tweak every major adjustment and set up the dust collection hardware.
These saws are a step up from the typical Delta/Jet/Powermatic. Heavy cast iron wheels, flat (not crowned) tires, more resawing depth, can tension over 1" blades easily, rock solid steel guide post, 3.5 HP motor, etc. Key to me is the ability to align and then lock in all the critical adjustments, Do it right once and then forget about it.
If I was to purchase today, the Laguna would take the top spot. They have really come far with fixing the quality issues whereas MiniMax has stagnated.
I'd love to replace my Carters with the Laguna ceramics. The Carters are fussy to set up and the bearings load up with gunk which needs to be constantly cleaned out. Don't read me wrong, the Carters do an excellent job when things are clean, it is just my opinion that bandsaw guides really should be scrapers instead of rollers (a roller thrust bearing is perfect IMO).
My MM came with a generic 1" blade that many believed to be an "Olsen" brand. That blade died after resawing maybe 30 feet of 10" white oak. I bought several timber wolf blades as replacements and they also disappointed me with short lives. I then went with a Highland Hardware resaw king and it's been heaven ever since.
Since my purchase, both MM and Laguna have begun selling more 'entry' level models and the Delta/Jet/Powermatic group has begun selling more upscale models, nicely filling the gap between the hobbyist and industrial equipment markets.
-BR
On 3/1/15, 8:57 AM, Leon wrote:

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On Sat, 07 Mar 2015 08:27:05 -0700

You mean they haven't made any further improvements on the design? Or no new models or something else?

I think I have a couple of Olson blades.
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