Kreg Jig advice

[Greg Guarino]

I decided last weekend to knock together a quick project that will serve as a (musical) keyboard stand when I want to use my keyboard at home, and a bench the rest of the time. I'm using wood that I saved from the Ikea bed my daughter outgrew some years ago. Here's the basic layout:

some of the wood it came from:

will also have horizontal members around three sides maybe 8" up from the bottom of the legs. (I'm omitting the fourth side to allow me to use a damper pedal with the keyboard). In addition, I've cut 45 degree angle corner braces to go inside the top and two crosswise supports to prevent the seat slats from sagging over too long a span.

I cut all the pieces before I thought too much about how I would fasten them. I bought a Kreg pocket hole jig and screws. I've never used the system before, but the video sure makes it look easy, and I've found the promotional videos are generally accurate ;)

I'm looking for general advice, plus the answer to a couple of specific questions.

How far apart should I space the screws at the ends of each support slat? The main ones are perhaps 5" wide. I assume I'll use two screws in each joint. How close to the edge is too close?

Should I glue the joints also? This would involve scraping the leg pieces where the horizontal boards meet them, as the wood is already finished. That would be a minor drag, but I don't want the thing to "rack" (is that the right word, as in "become a parallelogram"?) when someone sits on it. The wood is solid, BTW. I got the "coarse" Kreg screws.

Any further tips would also be appreciated.

[Leon]

The screws make for a pretty strong joint. If you are talking about a

5" width I would go at least 3 and if you are using 2x material you want longer screws than the common 1.25" screws. I find that 1/2" from the edge is not too close.

Glue would make it stronger and initially more ridged. Depending on how you orientate the boards to each other and climate changes expansion and contraction will make the glue joint weaker.

IIRC the jig has a scale that indicates the correct length screws to use.

[Pat Barber]

I would do the spacing on the jig. Yes ....2 screws will be fine. I would use the longer screws for this project

to the edge is not an issue. Note the project at the beginning of video. This video will help you a LOT in this project.

I "always" glue any kreg project. No reason to scrape your legs.

To prevent any racking I would add a cross piece between each set of legs and a longer cross piece going between each leg set. It would make it look better and be much stronger.

[Greg Guarino]

Really? Even though they are prefinished with whatever Ikea chose to use on them? The cut ends of the horizontal pieces are bare wood, but the legs have the original finish.

I have already cut those pieces, although there will only be three rather than four, to allow the use of a foot pedal.

[Greg Guarino]

That's the kind of advice I was looking for. The slats are not 2x material, although the legs are about that thick. I got the 1.25" screws, more than I'll ever need, so I'll try three screws. I also have a smattering of other sizes, so maybe I'll try a longer one in each critical joint also.

All of the joints will be (bare) end grain joined to (finished, as of now)edge grain.

The web site had a pdf chart that recommended 1.25" for 3/4" stock, which is close to the thickness of the Ikeawood. The legs are thicker, maybe 2" x 2.5".

[Pat Barber]

OK...if the legs have a finish, a little scraping is in order.

Three pieces was what I was recommending.

For a table that people put ALL sorts of weight on, I would find a way to glue and screw all joints and adding a gusset in each corner wouldn't hurt either.

[Leon]

Ha, Ha, ha,,,, you said more than you will ever need... LOL ;~) I think I once said that 25 years ago...

These Kreg pocket hole screws are excellent screws and not just for pocket holes. I literally buy these screws by the thousands and probably have 1~2 thousand pocket hole screws right now. Don't be afraid to use them. I picked up 2, 500 count boxes of Kreg screws at the WW show and paid $34 for 1000 screws. That is 3.4 cents each. Try buying a cheap crap screw at Home Depot or your local hardware store for that much.

Just saying don't limit yourself to only using these Kreg screws for pocket holes. They are absolutely a great value for a great screw.

It is never going to hurt to add glue, plus if the joint is not a great fit the glue can help fill the gap.

[Leon]

Scrape or use an aggressive grit sand paper.. Glue is going to help prevent wiggle in the joint should the wood shrink and the screws loosen any at all.

[Greg Guarino]

I figured I needed 50-60 for this project; a few more if I'm putting 3 in each joint on the main supports. I wanted to order 200 each of coarse (for this job and future plywood ideas) and fine (for face frames). But the next increment up from 100 was 1000 for the fine and 500 for the coarse, and the prices were only marginally more than for 2 boxes of

100, so...

You got taken! Here's my order:

Kreg SML-C125-500 1-1/4-Inch #8 Coarse Pocket Hole Screws with Washer-Head, 500-Pack Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $15.43

Kreg SML-F125-1000 1 1/4-Inch No. 7 Fine Pocket Hole Screws with Washer-Head, 1000-Pack Sold by Amazon.com LLC (Amazon.com) $16.99

Try buying a cheap

Happy to hear it, now that I'm so well stocked. :)

OK. Scrape and glue it is. Thanks.

[DanG]

Rather than the 3 sided bracing, consider bracing front to back on each end with a single cross piece at their midpoint.

[Leon]

Damn I did get taken and directly by Kreg!!! 1000 screws for $17 is cheeeeep.

[Dave]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:48:20 -0500, Leon

Well, initially you considered your purchase price to be a deal. No reason why that idea should change. And now, you know for next time. There's always a cheaper price somewhere else, but is it worth your time to find that cheaper price?

[Greg Guarino]

I realize now that that is what another poster must have meant as well. It's hard to describe spatial concepts in text sometimes.

I have two possible difficulties with your idea. The first is that the long brace that I cut would now be just a tad short to do it your way. I don't think I have any pieces long enough left. In addition, it might obstruct access to the damper pedal when I use it with the keyboard. I'll think about it.

[Greg Guarino]

Free shipping too. :)

Well, on orders of $25 or more, anyway. But before you get to feeling too jealous, I made a bit of a "screw"-up. I decided on the pocket hole method while I was away from my home shop, and ordered screws assuming the wood was 3/4". It's 1". So now I have to order 1.5" screws. There's a pretty good deal on those as well, but I have to either eat the shipping or pad the order to make $25.

[Leon]

Yeah I know LOL. And I have always said that if you are happy with the price you paid, you got a good deal. I was happy, I did not have to make a special trip or order the screws.

[Leon]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pad the order!!! You will eventually use those extra screws and I think that as you use them you will find many other uses for them.

AND that pocket hole bit can be used for normal counter sink drilling. it drills a 3/8" hole so you can even plug the hole after sinking the screw. I much prefer the Kreg washer and pan head pocket hole screws over the common flat head wood screw.

[Dave]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:02:50 -0500, Leon

With me, it's not so much money anymore. Now it's the type of service I get coupled with a measure of instant gratification thrown in.

Same thing with food. Now that I'm 58, it's not about eating quantity anymore. I can't eat 1/4 of the amount of food I used to be able to. Now, it's all about eating quality. When it comes to eating now, taste is everything.

I guess it's the same idea with Festool. Thirty years ago, the price of a Festool product would have sent me running for the hills. Probably explains many of the comments about Festool here. It doesn't explain Jack though. He's an older guy. He should appreciate the finer things in life.

Must be senility.

[John McGaw]

I've recently found out that joints with pocket screws are a lot stronger than I ever would have expected. I'd built utilitarian things like brackets to hold up my DC piping with them but when the need came to knock together a quick TV stand for Mom's new flatscreen I took a chance and used the Kreg for something serious. As it happened some wide white oak and some thick white oak were on the top of the wood rack after a cleanup so they were elected. The stand is 31 X 11 X 21 (WDH) the top and bottom are each held in place by two 1-1/4" fine-thread Kreg screws into the leg at right angles at each corner (eight per shelf) and the middle shelf floats on some homemade 3/16" brass pins and can fit at three different spacings or it can be removed entirely. So, seven pieces of wood, 16 Kreg screws, and 4 brass pins later I can say that you _can_ use pocket screws for decent furniture when you don't want to use traditional joinery.

The stand passed my wiggle test -- sit my 200 pounds down on it and wiggle and if it stands solid it passes. One change I might have made would have been to use longer screws but I only had fine-thread in the shorter length; going from shelf into leg I could have use 1-1/2" for a bit more strength.

As for how close to the edge, there seems to be very little chance of a blowout but I wouldn't get too close simply to make sure that there was enough wood for strength left on both sides of the hole. The recesses on my shelves are 1-1/4" square wrapped around 1-1/2" legs and the holes were roughly centered on each side of the recesses. Had the legs been slightly beefier and/or the recesses slightly larger I could have used two holes side-by-side instead of singles but this would have been pushing it in such a short distance. I didn't glue at all since I've found that cross-grain and end-grain glue gains very little strength and that usually goes away after the first seasonal change.

[Greg Guarino]

I grabbed a couple of pieces from the Guarino Museum of Test Scraps last night and made my first Kreg joint, oak 1x2 and 1x3 fastened at a right angle (like two sides of a butt-jointed picture frame). I didn't bother clamping it while I drove the screws, and the result was (predictably) ever so slightly out of alignment. But it had a satisfying feeling of "grab" as the screws went in and the joint felt very solid. Looks promising.

[Leon]

Dam you are old!!! I am only 57 1/2. ;~) Till August ;~(

I think Jack may not yet be comfortable with changing his mind. I originally thought Festool was way over priced too. Then I actually used the tool and ummmmm changed my mind.

BTY do you have a Festool Drill yet??? LOL

My Makita's batteries were pooping out and I have already replaced them once... My wife bought me a T15-3 drill set. This is the first drill that I consider better than my first cordless drill, a Panasonic.