help understanding face frame cup hinges and what size to use


I am taking on a project that is bigger than I have done before. An 8 foot entertainment wall unit in 2', 4', 2' sections. I have built the carcases but I am stuck on the doors. How do I predict the size I need for the face frame cup hinges? Is there a difference in overlay when the door is closed and when it is open and if so which overlay size to you buy for?. I have visited Rockler's web site but the info is still sketchy to me.
Thanks for any help
kb
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Keith,
Not sure I'm understanding what you wrote but it sounds like you want to know what kind of Euro (hidden hinge) to buy. You can look up the exact sizes up at several sites ( www.blum.com ) is one.
As for how much overlay (door larger than opening), that's a design decision but 1/2" overlay is pretty typical. For instance, if the cabinet door is made 1" wider and 1" taller than the face frame openings then you would have 1/2" overlay all the way around and would use a 1/2" overlay hinge. The next consideration is how far do you want the hinge to open the door (90, 110... more...) and then whether the hinge is mounted to the edge of the face frame (3/4" stock I presume) or is it a side mounted hinge as used in Euro stile cabinets that don't have a face frame.
And.... if you're design includes a center stile (a door on either side) then you need to consider the width of the stile, how much the doors will overlap the center stile (looks count here...) The overlay on the hinge side can be different than the handle side. For that matter, you can have whatever overlay you want on all the edges just so long as the hinge side is an overlay size that matches the type hinge you're buying.
Then there is the 35mm hole for the hinge cup on the door itself but there are styles that mount flush and do not need a hole if I remember correctly. Alignment is pretty critical and there are some pricey jigs you can buy to guide the cutting of the hole and mounting screws but you can make one in about 10 mins from some scraps too. The distance from the edge of the door to the hole is 1/8" on 1/2" overlay doors. If you use 3/8" or 5/8" overlay hinges then that distance to edge and hole will vary. So yes, you need to know how much the door will overlay the hinge side of the frame before you purchase the hinges.
But there are always exceptions and like just about all other technologies - they change damn near overnight.
Bob S.

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"BobS" wrote in message

All good info ... about the only thing I could add for the OP with regard to the "pricey jigs" is that if he has a drill press, all he really needs to locate the 35mm holes precisely/properly in the doors is a simple fence clamped solidly to the drill press table ... those "pricey jigs" are mainly for those operating only with a hand drill, IME.
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I've found the Rockler jigs to locate the cabinet side of the hinge to be quite handy.
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I have probably drilled a thousand 1-3/8" holes in doors and always used the drill press with a temp fence. I draw a line at the center location of 1 hole and drill the hole. Then I extend that line to the fence. After that simply align the line on the door to the one on the fence. I used to use stops but find a tape measure and a quick mark on the door works just fine.
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"Leon" wrote in message

Great minds think alike ... I first used stops also, but your method and/or pencil lines on the fence in place of stops (that way I don't have to mark each door) works fine too, particularly with overlay doors on FF cabinets where the top and bottom hinge alignment distance is not all that critical.
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By hand, eh? Not me. If there needs to be just one reason to buy a drill press...........
It is not easy to drill within a few millimetres from the face of the door with a bit that big and keep the bottom of the hole parallel to the face of the door at the same time...... all without a depth-stop *S* YIKES!!
I did make a small guide/jig that clamps onto the door and with a 1/2" mortising router bit and a bushing, it makes nice flat-bottomed hinge-cup holes. Strictly for that 'field emergency'.
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cup hinges(euro hinges) come in three "basic" flavors with a little twist here and there.
(1) full overlay (2) half overlay (used when two doors are back to back) (3) full inset (4) face frame --- full overlay
A cheap and easy way to predict door size is make a "dummy" out of 3/4" mdf and see how it works.
With face frame hinges, I would shoot for 3/8" all the way around BUT ..you need to pick a hinge before you build the doors. The hinge will determine door size.
Did you read this ????
http://www.rockler.com/articles/display_article.cfm?&story_idQ#overlay
Note that they come in 3 different overlays....
I would find a hinge I like and stick with that hinge going forward.
Keith Boeheim wrote:

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I forgot:
http://www.hardwaresource.com/newsdetail.asp?ID 
which describes it fairly well...
Keith Boeheim wrote:

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I buy these type hinges by the 100's. Typically the face frame overlay hinges come in different overlay measurements. I always use 1/2" overlay hinges. Simply double the amount of overlay and add it to the width and height of the actual opening in the cabinet. For example when I use 1/2" overlay face frame hinges on a door to cover a 14" x 20" opening, I make the door 15"x21". The second obstacle is hole placement in the door for the cup. Every hinge of this type that I have used requires that you have the edge of the hole 1/8" from the edge of the door. Up and down measurements are strictly up to you. If you drill the hole more than 1/8" from the edge of the door the door will rub the cabinet face frame when you open or close the door. Theoretically doors using these type hinges can almost be places next to each other so clearance is normally not an issue providing you measure properly. The hinges offset them selves when opened and closed such that tight tolerances between doors can be obtained. That said this is more important when building the more traditional Euro cabinets that have no face frames at all and all you see is doors and drawer fronts. Typically with a face framed cabinet you have plenty of clearance as usually the face frame is exposed between the doors.
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Leon,
According to Blum and the hinges I usually get (compact 33's) there is a difference for each overlay. The distance from the edge of the door to the edge of the cup hole varies from 1/8" to 5/16" (http://www.blum.com/usa/img/brochure_pdf/1046_Concealed_hinges.pdf ) see table on page 3.
I know that's not much but it can ruin your whole day if you misdrilll the cup holes. I haven't checked all their hinges but I thought they had a new one out where you could use a -set- offset (as in production run) and adjust for different overlay's on the arm. Don't recall where I read that - and maybe it wasn't for a Blum hinge.
Bob S.

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"BobS" wrote in message

Yep ... my last blum spec sheet for _inset_ cabinet doors on non-FF cabinets called for 3/16". I don't recall which model blum it was, but the blums I used with the accuride flipper slides on the same project called for 3/16" also.
The blums I use on 3/8" overlay doors for FF cabinets generally call for Leon's 1/8", though.
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I use the Compact 38's. I have almost always used the face frame stile as the OP indicated. I absolutely do no doubt that the non-FF hinges require different spacing from the edge of the door.
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Thanks for pointing that out to me Bob. Personally I use the Blum Compact 38. This is a 1 piece design and according to the application guide the offset is 1/8" on all overlays. Take a look here and if you click the application icon it appears to be a 1/8" off set that I assume is for all overlays. Again I have always only used 1/2" overlays.
http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/GroupID/Cabinet%20Hinges/CatID/Cabinet%20Hinges%2C%20Blum%26%23174%3B%20Concealed/SubCatID/105%26%230176%3B%20Compact%2038
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No doubt about it - they show 1/8" for the Compact 38 hinges. Now go look at the Compact 33 on that site and look at the Application Guide and you tell me what the offset would be? They sure make that chart hard to understand.....
Guess the point here is - best read the instructions for the hinge you're using before applying power.....
Bob S.

http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/GroupID/Cabinet%20Hinges/CatID/Cabinet%20Hinges%2C%20Blum%26%23174%3B%20Concealed/SubCatID/105%26%230176%3B%20Compact%2038
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Yeah I read it. I had always assumed the 1/8" was so that the door edge would clear the face frame since the hinge holds the door out from the face frame 1/8". I guess the pivot point on the different sized 38's is in different places in the cup.

16 years ago I used some Blum hinges that actually mounted on the surface of the face frame. Those were a real PIA to properly position on the cabinet. Still even back then the spacing was 1/8" I agree though it is safe to read the directions especially when using a new style hinge.
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I guess the pivot point on the different sized 38's is in

Oops.. that should have been,
I guess the pivot point on the different sized 33's is in

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