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There's quite a difference between the concept of company employees forcing someone out and the governments we elect to power. While people in our governments aren't above playing dirty politics when it suits them, they're under much higher scrutiny by the general public and our media industries than any that would happen in a small company.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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Sadly, you're describing what often happens in a union shop. Piss off the foreman? No problem. Piss off the committeeman? Stand by for a knee replacement.
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wrote:

I guess it may depend on the industry you're in- There's only a very few that get that treatment, and it is because they are obviously and blatently disregarding all the policies of the company. When a guy is causing others to get injured or refusing to work *at all* (and we've had a few of each- usually it's the same guy doing both) it's not ok to wait 6 months for HR to build a file against them. The last guy it happened to managed to snap a bandsaw blade into the face of one of my co-workers, and gave him a scar he'll carry for the rest of his life. I shudder to think of what would have happened had he been allowed to operate the overhead crane. In a dangerous environment, screwing around and general incompetance can be the difference between life and death, and in that case- yes, I do advocate pushing the offenders out the door.
Of course, if you're in an office and you don't like the way someone files papers it may be an entirely different story. Ditto for many other forms of lighter work where the problem may be that they are causing someone inconvenience, rather than actively endangering others. I should have been a little more clear there the first time around- I was talking about shop enviroments and heavy industry.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
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Ok, I can't object to something like that. Causing injury due to negligence or laziness isn't to be tolerated under any circumstances.

And from a little experience, I can sympathize. A number of years ago when I was 18 and working ground crew at Toronto airport, there was one guy especially that was usually drunk or well on his way to getting there. He'd raid the bar trolleys on the planes every chance he could got. One day, I witnessed him falling 15 feet off one of the mobile stair ramps. He wasn't seriously hurt that I can recall, but after that, I refused to work on his crew citing personality differences. The union reps brushed the whole thing over as a simple accident. A week later, he ran a luggage jeep into the wing of a 737. There was quite a bit of damage. I'm not sure about 737s and wing tanks, but there could have been a hell of an explosion under worse circumstances. This time there was a more serious inquiry, but again the union protected him enough to keep his job.
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April 2005 09:16 am:

And that, in my opinion, is where the unions totally fumble the ball and fully lose my respect. I AM a union member. I work in a closed shop and I had to chose between paying dues or finding other work.
Job protection should only come up when a guy is actually trying to do the job in some serious sort of way. It's a much more constructive hammer if you only swing it when there's a nail to be hit.
Where I work, if you have an accident, with or without an injury, you can either go to to the clinic and pee in the jar / blow in the straw or you can go home and stay there. If you go to the clinic, the union will try to keep you employed. But you are no longer an equipment operator. That's the trade off. The company (through no fault of its own) loses the training they have invested in you and you lose your pay premium ... dropping back to just about a buck an hour more than the temps make and kissing off your 'benefits' for 90 days. After a year (AFAIK), you can reapply for your old job. If sent to a rehab program, it must have been completed per the original agreement.
The union helps people kill themselves when they shield them from the job consequences of their drug problems. That's a shame. What's a crime is that they often help them kill others on their way out.
DAMHIKT, but I do.
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Bill C. wrote:

Like I said, Management WANTS this option for bargaining reasons. Union officers WANT this this situation to pad their pockets. BOTH parties are driven by GREED. Management is at fault, unions are at fault - I currently have little use for neither of them. Decent, hard working people who WANT the system changed are screwed.

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I think you helped me make my case. Thanks!
Although labor unions once served a purpose, they have become greedy selfish entities. Yes, CEO do get paid too much when compared to the rank and file -- maybe. CEO are paid too little when compared to professional atheletes. Just my opinion.
Unions are one of the major causes that jobs have gone overseas. Thye continues to rachet up wages and benifits to unrealistic levels.
What makes you think I'm "unknowing". The fact that you worked at GM and had some exposure to a union doesn't make you an expert.
Union's have the constant tiresome mantra -- look at top management. Now there's where I have the same credientials you have. I'm part of top management and it's not so easy.
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Never Enough Money wrote:

CEO are paid too little when compared to

You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union today. The fact that you worked at GM

Never said I was - telling of my experiences & many relatives' experiences.

They constantly say it because it's true & they can't fire management.

All I keep hearing from management is "You have to do more in less time with less supplies & hardly a thought of a pay raise - we have to "grow the company" You know, increase profit margins so my measurables show I'm worth that big bonus". Why do you "HAVE" to grow the company. You need to make it COMPETITIVE. Have you ever given thought to the idea of "growing" the company down to learn how to be competitive? No, you're looking at a 1 year time frame max to sell your concepts to get that bonus/raise. The company I'm at right now is being sold because the new (2 years service) COO bankrupt the 30 year owners/founders by selling them an idea that they could be a Tier 1 auto supplier. Through his contacts he got approx. 100 GM jobs launched at the same time. 160 employee company was no where near prepared to do this. I'll be the first to say the owners are not good businessmen. They let this guy trash their company because he spoke of grand increases/improvements. I guess that's what the latest management gurus taught him. "If you believe it, it will happen".
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Stephen Young wrote:

Best job I ever had, good work environment, good people, as long as the work got done they didn't really care too much about when and where you did it, stock was at 50 bucks a share and we were _going_ places. Well, while the guy that was taking us there was off in Europe drumming up 50 million dollars in new business some yahoo who came to be known as "The Green Rat" to the employees was in New York sucking up to the majority shareholder. So he replaced the guy who was in Europe as CEO. 5 years later I decided just for jollies to buy a block of stock (that's 100 shares). It was either that or a hamburger and I wasn't all that hungry that day. Besides, the stock was cheaper. Came across the certificate the other day.
Simple fact is that a business in a mature market isn't going to grow very much unless it can come up with some way to take share from the competition, find a way to make the market larger, or find a new and untapped niche.
I like the folks who say "just do it". No wasteful preliminaries like planning and costing.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
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Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers get.
I agree. However, they were criminals and not the average CEO.
Top management jobs are far less secure than union jobs. They get fired all the time. That's why they get these hige severance clauses -- they know their job may be short lived.
Your whole last section needs some serious rethinking on your part.
You have provoked me into violating a principle of never going off-topic in the woodworking group. My sincere apologies to those of you coming here for woodworking only to find these OT posts.
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Never Enough Money wrote:

up the problems with management today...

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You said: "You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union today. "
So dazzle me with how unions are making life better.....I'm all ears.
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On 24 Apr 2005 17:53:10 -0700, "Never Enough Money"

As a guy who has worked on both sides of the same shop, including as an elected union officer, me too. I'm all ears.
Barry
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Never Enough Money wrote:

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Stephen Young says...

I couldn't agree more. It's the biggest scam ever perpetuated how these clowns get promoted to the highest positions and get paid so much. I've watched them give totally unrealistic revenue forecasts to make themselves look good. Then when the numbers inevitably don't come through, they get unceremoniously fired. But in the meantime, they made in that year what I made in three years and probably got another two years worth of severance pay. And all for doing less than nothing. Then when they are gone, they are hardly missed at all. If you look at them, they are all the same. It's just a boy's club where the right socioeconomic background is what makes the whole thing go around. Intelligence, creativity or good intentions are unnecessary, if not despised.
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If you live in a cold climate you should make sure the ballast is electrostaic, not magnetic.....or maybe I have that switched...Anyway, one is better in the cold.
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thanks for the advise--in regards to the other crap said I just thought someone would have a online source that I could look at. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder--don't look in the mirror.

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No, ignorance is not making the least bit of effort to explain yourself properly. As well as being a critical SOB once in awhile, I do go out of my way to help someone with a suggestion when I can. Instead of saying that you need to find some 8ft. shop lights, you could just as well have said that you need to find some water. Next time, state what type of water, what grade of quality you're looking for and if anyone has a replacement suggestion for the water. If you can't at least do that, then expect the smart-ass comments.
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Smart ass-comments, who needs 'em? Oh wait, did I just make a smart-ass comment?
Lighten up, Upscale.
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Chris, disregard the smart-ass comments from others. The question is not as dumb as it might seem. First off, I much prefer 8' tubes over the 4's. The stupid little pins on the 4's are a PITA. The fixtures tend to be junk compared to the more expensive 8's as well. Yes, the 8's cost more for the tubes, but they last many times longer than the 4's and cost less in the long run. I've got 4 years, and a shop relocation, on these tubes and have not burned one out yet. There is a reason why commercial buildings use the 8's, where labor to change tubes is a big factor.
As for finding them, I outfitted my whole shop with discards from store remodeling. Cost me nothing for 8 fixtures which I mounted in 4 rows of 2 each. In California, and I assume other locales as well, remodeling requires code upgrade to energy efficient fixtures. Find someone doing remodels of commercial buildings and you can probably get all the old fixtures for free. They will end up in a dumpster anyway.
-- Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com/woodshop
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