There's quite a difference between the concept of company employees forcing
someone out and the governments we elect to power. While people in our
governments aren't above playing dirty politics when it suits them, they're
under much higher scrutiny by the general public and our media industries
than any that would happen in a small company.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I guess it may depend on the industry you're in- There's only a very
few that get that treatment, and it is because they are obviously and
blatently disregarding all the policies of the company. When a guy is
causing others to get injured or refusing to work *at all* (and we've
had a few of each- usually it's the same guy doing both) it's not ok
to wait 6 months for HR to build a file against them. The last guy it
happened to managed to snap a bandsaw blade into the face of one of my
co-workers, and gave him a scar he'll carry for the rest of his life.
I shudder to think of what would have happened had he been allowed to
operate the overhead crane. In a dangerous environment, screwing
around and general incompetance can be the difference between life and
death, and in that case- yes, I do advocate pushing the offenders out
Of course, if you're in an office and you don't like the way someone
files papers it may be an entirely different story. Ditto for many
other forms of lighter work where the problem may be that they are
causing someone inconvenience, rather than actively endangering
others. I should have been a little more clear there the first time
around- I was talking about shop enviroments and heavy industry.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
Ok, I can't object to something like that. Causing injury due to negligence
or laziness isn't to be tolerated under any circumstances.
And from a little experience, I can sympathize. A number of years ago when I
was 18 and working ground crew at Toronto airport, there was one guy
especially that was usually drunk or well on his way to getting there. He'd
raid the bar trolleys on the planes every chance he could got. One day, I
witnessed him falling 15 feet off one of the mobile stair ramps. He wasn't
seriously hurt that I can recall, but after that, I refused to work on his
crew citing personality differences. The union reps brushed the whole thing
over as a simple accident. A week later, he ran a luggage jeep into the wing
of a 737. There was quite a bit of damage. I'm not sure about 737s and wing
tanks, but there could have been a hell of an explosion under worse
circumstances. This time there was a more serious inquiry, but again the
union protected him enough to keep his job.
And that, in my opinion, is where the unions totally fumble the ball and
fully lose my respect. I AM a union member. I work in a closed shop and I
had to chose between paying dues or finding other work.
Job protection should only come up when a guy is actually trying to do the
job in some serious sort of way. It's a much more constructive hammer if
you only swing it when there's a nail to be hit.
Where I work, if you have an accident, with or without an injury, you can
either go to to the clinic and pee in the jar / blow in the straw or you
can go home and stay there. If you go to the clinic, the union will try to
keep you employed. But you are no longer an equipment operator. That's the
trade off. The company (through no fault of its own) loses the training
they have invested in you and you lose your pay premium ... dropping back
to just about a buck an hour more than the temps make and kissing off your
'benefits' for 90 days. After a year (AFAIK), you can reapply for your old
job. If sent to a rehab program, it must have been completed per the
The union helps people kill themselves when they shield them from the job
consequences of their drug problems. That's a shame. What's a crime is that
they often help them kill others on their way out.
DAMHIKT, but I do.
Like I said, Management WANTS this option for bargaining reasons. Union officers
WANT this this
situation to pad their pockets. BOTH parties are driven by GREED. Management is
at fault, unions
are at fault - I currently have little use for neither of them. Decent, hard
working people who
WANT the system changed are screwed.
I think you helped me make my case. Thanks!
Although labor unions once served a purpose, they have become greedy
selfish entities. Yes, CEO do get paid too much when compared to the
rank and file -- maybe. CEO are paid too little when compared to
professional atheletes. Just my opinion.
Unions are one of the major causes that jobs have gone overseas. Thye
continues to rachet up wages and benifits to unrealistic levels.
What makes you think I'm "unknowing". The fact that you worked at GM
and had some exposure to a union doesn't make you an expert.
Union's have the constant tiresome mantra -- look at top management.
Now there's where I have the same credientials you have. I'm part of
top management and it's not so easy.
You are obviously not aware of what goes on in a union today.
The fact that you worked at GM
Never said I was - telling of my experiences & many relatives' experiences.
They constantly say it because it's true & they can't fire management.
All I keep hearing from management is "You have to do more in less time with
less supplies & hardly a thought of a pay raise - we have to "grow the company"
You know, increase profit margins so my measurables show I'm worth that big
Why do you "HAVE" to grow the company. You need to make it COMPETITIVE.
Have you ever given thought to the idea of "growing" the company down to learn
how to be competitive? No, you're looking at a 1 year time frame max to sell
your concepts to
get that bonus/raise. The company I'm at right now is being sold because the
new (2 years service) COO bankrupt the 30 year owners/founders by selling them
an idea that
they could be a Tier 1 auto supplier. Through his contacts he got approx. 100 GM
at the same time. 160 employee company was no where near prepared to do this.
I'll be the first to say the owners are not good businessmen. They let this
guy trash their company because he spoke of grand increases/improvements. I
guess that's what
the latest management gurus taught him. "If you believe it, it will happen".
Best job I ever had, good work environment, good people, as long as the work
got done they didn't really care too much about when and where you did it,
stock was at 50 bucks a share and we were _going_ places. Well, while the
guy that was taking us there was off in Europe drumming up 50 million
dollars in new business some yahoo who came to be known as "The Green Rat"
to the employees was in New York sucking up to the majority shareholder.
So he replaced the guy who was in Europe as CEO. 5 years later I decided
just for jollies to buy a block of stock (that's 100 shares). It was
either that or a hamburger and I wasn't all that hungry that day. Besides,
the stock was cheaper. Came across the certificate the other day.
Simple fact is that a business in a mature market isn't going to grow very
much unless it can come up with some way to take share from the
competition, find a way to make the market larger, or find a new and
I like the folks who say "just do it". No wasteful preliminaries like
planning and costing.
Ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, etc. NO CEO is worth what these jokers
I agree. However, they were criminals and not the average CEO.
Top management jobs are far less secure than union jobs. They get
fired all the time. That's why they get these hige severance clauses --
they know their job may be short lived.
Your whole last section needs some serious rethinking on your part.
You have provoked me into violating a principle of never going
off-topic in the woodworking group. My sincere apologies to those of
you coming here for woodworking only to find these OT posts.
I couldn't agree more. It's the biggest scam ever perpetuated how these
clowns get promoted to the highest positions and get paid so much. I've
watched them give totally unrealistic revenue forecasts to make
themselves look good. Then when the numbers inevitably don't come
through, they get unceremoniously fired. But in the meantime, they made
in that year what I made in three years and probably got another two
years worth of severance pay. And all for doing less than nothing.
Then when they are gone, they are hardly missed at all. If you look at
them, they are all the same. It's just a boy's club where the right
socioeconomic background is what makes the whole thing go around.
Intelligence, creativity or good intentions are unnecessary, if not
No, ignorance is not making the least bit of effort to explain yourself
properly. As well as being a critical SOB once in awhile, I do go out of my
way to help someone with a suggestion when I can. Instead of saying that you
need to find some 8ft. shop lights, you could just as well have said that
you need to find some water. Next time, state what type of water, what grade
of quality you're looking for and if anyone has a replacement suggestion for
the water. If you can't at least do that, then expect the smart-ass
Chris, disregard the smart-ass comments from others. The question is not as
dumb as it might seem. First off, I much prefer 8' tubes over the 4's. The
stupid little pins on the 4's are a PITA. The fixtures tend to be junk
compared to the more expensive 8's as well. Yes, the 8's cost more for the
tubes, but they last many times longer than the 4's and cost less in the
long run. I've got 4 years, and a shop relocation, on these tubes and have
not burned one out yet. There is a reason why commercial buildings use the
8's, where labor to change tubes is a big factor.
As for finding them, I outfitted my whole shop with discards from store
remodeling. Cost me nothing for 8 fixtures which I mounted in 4 rows of 2
each. In California, and I assume other locales as well, remodeling
requires code upgrade to energy efficient fixtures. Find someone doing
remodels of commercial buildings and you can probably get all the old
fixtures for free. They will end up in a dumpster anyway.
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