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"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

Synod)
Good on you ... and you are correct about monetary assistance being sorely needed. For anyone who hasn't heard, the American Red Cross is taking donations at:
1-800 HELP NOW.
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I find it pretty sad that anybody would be pulled off rescue efforts to protect material objects instead of saving life. It's a sad day in this world that we are more worried about a TV more then somebodies life.
Roy
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"ROYNEU" wrote in message

Hey Roy, in this case I don't think it was that as much as the shooting at rescue workers... kinda hard to rescue with bullets flying.
According to one of my relatives close by, there was a rescue effort consisting of a flotilla of over one hundred "Bubba's in bass boats" scheduled for yesterday morning (and welcomed by the "authorities", LRod), who couldn't do what they came for because of that.
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You could be right. I couldn't tell if Mark and/or Juanita was refering to the shooting at rescue workers or if it was the case where the Gov. pulled the police out of the rescue work night before last to stop the looters in general.
Let them have the TV's etc. there will be no power to plug it into anyway. Beside they will be selling their hide for a drink of water pretty soon.
Roy
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Nah, protecting property is apparently far more important than saving lives.
As for the lack of planning, there have been plans, plans, and more plans about the catastrophic failure of those levees and dikes in place for decades.
Read "The control of Nature" by John McPhee, he, among many writers, was talking about the role of the Army corp of Engineers in that area and their plans years ago.
"Mr. Bill" of SNL fame did a flippin PSA about the levees breaking well over a year ago.
Contrary to Mr. Bush's comments, a lot of people knew exactly what would happen when the levee's were breached. They were asking, begging and pleading for federal money for decades to help fix the problems.
What they got was decreasing budgets every year from the last 3 administrations. Contracters working on the last series of local/state projects went without pay for a year in order to complete their work. The last local budget was used to pay contracter's for work done the previous year.
The lack of leadership from the federal government is mind numbing. The president went to a freakin golf course AFTER being informed that a class 4,5 hurricane was less than 100 miles from landfall.
The directors of both FEMA and of Homeland Security have exactly zero experience in emergency/disaster preparedness and response. Mr. Brown of FEMA had to be told by television reporters the extent of the problems erupting at the New Orleans convention center. And these are the people who are in charge of things? God help us when we actually get attacked by someone.

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Plans are little use in the absence of action...

And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems? Why should taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees in Louisiana?

See above. Not a federal responsibility.

What, you think he could have done something to change its course?

Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the scene know what they're up to.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

That started right around the time that the locals began paying taxes to the Federal Government to support programs that weren't strictly Federal in nature. In the instant case, perhaps protecting NO, Biloxi and Mobile from Natural disasters became a Federal Problem when the Feds started levying tariffs on good passing through those ports. Keep in mind that the states cannot levy tariffs of their own.

Well the seaport of New Orleans contributes quite a bit to the the economy of the entire country. Perhaps as much so as the Federally subsidized farming in Indiana, the Federally-regulated fishing in Maine (probably a bad example as I doubt that the fishermen there think the Feds are _helping_) or the Federal highway system in Utah. (I know, the farmers aren't PAID by the Feds, but they do benefit from the subsidy program) Everybody gets Federal aid at the local level, maybe we'd all be better off without it and just pay less tax to the Federal Government, but that is not the way it is or has been for about a century or so. And as noted above, seaports are special in that they cannot directly tax the imports/exports to raise revenue themselves.

Part of the problem is that once the Feds do get involved, then the locals get used to suckling on the Federal teat and stop fending for themselves. Then if the Feds do a half-assed job or pull out of the program the locals don't have the management or infrastructure in place. In the case of NO, one imagines that few administrations were willing to build up the levies and the return (in campaign contributions) was probably higher if the available funds were spent on other things like the infrastruce needed to support tourism. Not a good thing. Not an excuse, just some commentary.

Screwed again.
--

FF


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This is a big part of the problem. The local scene is so destroyed for so far that a lot of things put in place would be unusable. and unreachable.
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I may be wrong, but I thought that the decision to pull the police from rescue to looter control was due to looters looting gun stores, armed bands raping and stealing from stranded folks, drug stores being emptied from all sorts of controlled substances, coordinated attacks on people holed up in hotels and on doctors in hospitals, etc., etc. This bull of referring to the looters as those poor folks just trying to get some food and water has lived its day and we have to see what happened as the nasty, violent perdition of animals that it was.
Dave Hall
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Didn't really pay attention to that report did you? How about - they were pulled off of search and rescue to attempt to restore order in the face of shootings, rapes, fires, explosions and yes - looting. Do you really believe all of the looting that's going on down there is in the name of "necessities" and that it's a benign environment? Better to consider it a sad note that 4 days into this disaster, our highly funded disaster preparedness organizations such as FEMA have fumbled so badly with this whole thing. Not to mention that the state and local authorities had no real plan to deal with what was a guaranteed eventuality in their area.
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-Mike-
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I don't think it it the material objects' protection so much as the people doing the looting are also engaging in other acts of violence (several murders, multiple rapes every night in the SuperDome, gangs roaming the streets stealing from people at gun-point, stealing the buses that are coming to evacuate people) That's what is causing the police to have to be pulled off of rescue efforts for law enforcement -- people are getting hurt and killed by thugs.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

a
I could agree with that, except for the fact that the "emergency managers" kept predicting, correctly as it turns out, just how bad it was going to be for three days beforehand ... didn't they believe their own damn predictions?
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The American Red Cross has been singularly instrumental in that. Their volunteers have shown up from as far away as Hawaii.
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Yeah, funny how much easier it is to get your shit together, when you have power, water, and all that stuff. Face it - people are going to bitch about the response no matter what. Some of it is legitimate criticism, some of it is just people making noise instead of doing something.
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

Sorry, as I've already stated, their predictions three days out turned out to be very accurate ... IMO, the _leadership_ does get paid to have "the strength of their predictions", so to speak.
I have no problem whatsoever in criticizing what was an obvious lack of _leadership_, particularly with regard to 'command and control' issues, at both local and Federal level. I also predict you will hear a lot more in that regard when the chips finally fall.
On a brighter note ... just delivered another truck load of blankets/towels/books/games and clothes, compliments of more of my neighbors who filled up the bed for the second time in two days. The Methodist church is handling the former, the next door Baptist church the latter ... nice to put aside the red state/blue state thing, and all the other divisive issues, and see everyone dividing up the work and getting it done.
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Swingman wrote:


I still think it highly unlikely <anybody> on this planet would have been able to predict the magnitude of the result and have plans in place to cope given the geography of the area.
It's all well and good to reevaluate and update procedures for the future but to harp on it now is simply beating on the dead horse.
Where, for example, would they have found and how could they have gotten a sufficient number of seats to move 50,000 people w/o transportation to somewhere else (and where would that somewhere else be)? At 100/bus, it would be 500 buses at least. And, how would you suggest they could have gotten all of those people to even go to get on the buses before the storm?
It's wishful thinking and some things could be going better, but most while tragic is almost inevitable in the short term.
The only thing I think that really could have been done that doesn't seem to have happened is much more massive air drops of water and food to the stranded.

That's good...we Methodists here are collecting and have sent five semi-loads of water and MRE-type food--left yesterday to head straight through to the Baton Rouge area and coordinated w/ another Methodist Church there.
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

at
What? The HISTORY of the Gulf Coast, and the KNOWN effects of a huricane (wind and water) on same, should give even the piss poorest of the leadership a clue.

... beat that dead horse now, so that you can keep the next one alive.

READ again what I said ... granted, there are some things you can't do anything about, but there is simply NO excuse to NOT have 'command and control' worked out in advance when you know PRECISELY the nature of what you have to deal with (see first above).
I can tell you, firsthand, that single, most important aspect is what gets most combat units through tough times, _without_ them having the advantage of knowing in advance what's going to be thrown at them.
That aspect alone, being able to direct/ and manage efforts/rescue efforts more effectively, with adequate commincations, would have helped immensely in the "emergency management" of this latest disaster.
There is no doubt this was lacking, that it was a leadership problem, and there is simply NO excuse for that not being in place at both local and Federal level.
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Swingman wrote:

...
I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one thing to <know/predict> it's yet another to really envision what actually occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually impossible to grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as the complete destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was <known>...
And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and who I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does anything constructive <at this point>...
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"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

I brought it up merely as a preface to predicting that it will produce something constructive ... if it doesn't, we need to look elsewhere for leadership in these times, from the top on down.
And I am not kidding when I say someone of the leadership caliber of Rudy G and what he did in NY during those times ... and I have no earthly idea of his political persuasion, nor do I give a rat's ass.
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Swingman wrote:

And what I'm saying is that while I agree he appears to be a damn smart cookie (and I don't recall for sure his persuasion either, but I think he's a Red Stater???) I think he had <far> more resources to call upon than does the State of LA or the City of NO. And, I don't think he had a <whole> lot to do with that having been in place before he ever showed up (or was born, even)...
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