From another ng

[Dave Hall]

I may be wrong, but I thought that the decision to pull the police from rescue to looter control was due to looters looting gun stores, armed bands raping and stealing from stranded folks, drug stores being emptied from all sorts of controlled substances, coordinated attacks on people holed up in hotels and on doctors in hospitals, etc., etc. This bull of referring to the looters as those poor folks just trying to get some food and water has lived its day and we have to see what happened as the nasty, violent perdition of animals that it was.

Dave Hall

[Steve Peterson]

(snip)

(snip)

Actually, there was an article in the NO Times-Picayune in 2002 that is an incredibly accurate prediction. See

[Doug Miller]

Plans are little use in the absence of action...

And where was the government of the State of Louisiana? When did it become the responsibility of the federal government to fix local problems? Why should taxpayers in Utah or Indiana or Maine pay for repairing levees in Louisiana?

See above. Not a federal responsibility.

What, you think he could have done something to change its course?

Immaterial. Trying to manage a disaster response from a thousand miles away isn't going to work anyway. What counts is whether the local officials on the scene know what they're up to.

[Duane Bozarth]

...

I agree--he definitely has a projection about him...

One last observation, though. As terrible as it was in NYC, it was only a small area in the heart of the city affecting something like 20,000 people. In actual scope of the disaster and immediate consequences it was minute compared to NO in particular and the Gulf Coast in general.

[Duane Bozarth]

create enough belief to react in such scope to the event. It is so incredible and so out of character it is simply beyond most to imagine and so they can't bring themselves to go far enough in their actions. Wise? No. Human nature? Yes.

Place yourself in the position even if you had read the predictions and with very limited resources and what seem to be far more pressing issues. Can you honestly say you would have unequivocally devoted sufficient resources to the far-off "one day"?

[Dave Balderstone]

Anyone above a half-wit in NOLA knew this was inevitable, just as anyone above a half-wit living in California knows the Big One could hit tomorrow.

What astounds me is how poorly prepared the agencies (civic, state and federal) appear to have been, and how quickly the facade of civilization collapses.

Here in Canada we joked about our army being mobilized a few years ago when Toronto got hit by a freak snowstorm, but the fact is they were mobilized in hours, responded in hours and the operation was a success.

WTF is going on along the gulf coast? It's been FIVE DAYS and relief is just arriving...

[David]

Two words: "magnitude" and "logistics"

Don't forget some people would have been rescued from their homes had the good folks who volunteered to go in with boats not been fired upon. Snipers have been firing upon doctors still stuck downtown at hospitals. Would you stroll down there as a good Samaritan to pluck someone out of the flood if chances are you'd get blown away by one of the nut cases? Much of the relief effort has had to be diverted to reestablishing law and order. The damage turned out to be much worse than expected, so cut the authorities who are working nearly 20 hours a day, a bit of slack. How have you helped out? If you aren't part of the solution, then you must be part of the problem. Corrupt NO police contributed to the quickly escalating anarchy. Some of them went so far as to turn in their badges (probably the same one's seen looting on camera?).

Dave

[Swingman]

Pretty damn unbelievable, I agree.

However, as bad as it is, it _is_ heartening to see the reaction here in Houston from many. Made four trips to a Red Cross drop-off point in my truck thus far today, carrying clothes, canned goods, games, toys, blankets, towels and every imaginable type of hygienic item, all donated by folks on just the few streets surrounding mine. An e-mail to my immediate neighbors this morning saying that since I had a truck, I could easily do a 'pickup and delivery' for those who were unable, next thing I know I have a mini-pickup point on my hands. The same thing is going on all over this city.

When I get to these two drop-off points, the multitude of ORGANIZED volunteers, from little kids to senior citizens, working to feed and clothe the "refugees" here would make you feel a lot better that things are more swiftly being addressed than you're going to see on the news.

I just watched a BBC newscast that had a decidedly political spin to it ... really pissed me off after what I've seen here all day.

That said, I agree with everything you say.

[Ba r r y]

1.) Shear magnitude. It's not just New Orleans that's in trouble. 2.) Toronto & NYC weren't underwater. 3.) No one was taking pot shots at relief aircraft, cops, & boats in NYC & Toronto.

[Charlie Self]

I have to agree. Also, what happened in NYC was totally unexpected, completely out of the clear blue sky, while NO had days of warning, and years and even decades of the knowledge that what did come was going to come, someday. I wonder how many still believe in "someday."

Sounds like Houston is getting a lot of refugees. Keep up your good work. In the meantime, I'll make another small donation to the Red Cross or Salvation Army. Maybe both.

[fredfighter]

That started right around the time that the locals began paying taxes to the Federal Government to support programs that weren't strictly Federal in nature. In the instant case, perhaps protecting NO, Biloxi and Mobile from Natural disasters became a Federal Problem when the Feds started levying tariffs on good passing through those ports. Keep in mind that the states cannot levy tariffs of their own.

Well the seaport of New Orleans contributes quite a bit to the the economy of the entire country. Perhaps as much so as the Federally subsidized farming in Indiana, the Federally-regulated fishing in Maine (probably a bad example as I doubt that the fishermen there think the Feds are _helping_) or the Federal highway system in Utah. (I know, the farmers aren't PAID by the Feds, but they do benefit from the subsidy program) Everybody gets Federal aid at the local level, maybe we'd all be better off without it and just pay less tax to the Federal Government, but that is not the way it is or has been for about a century or so. And as noted above, seaports are special in that they cannot directly tax the imports/exports to raise revenue themselves.

Part of the problem is that once the Feds do get involved, then the locals get used to suckling on the Federal teat and stop fending for themselves. Then if the Feds do a half-assed job or pull out of the program the locals don't have the management or infrastructure in place. In the case of NO, one imagines that few administrations were willing to build up the levies and the return (in campaign contributions) was probably higher if the available funds were spent on other things like the infrastruce needed to support tourism. Not a good thing. Not an excuse, just some commentary.

Screwed again.

[Morris Dovey]

| I knew after I sent it I didn't word what I meant well...it's one | thing to it's yet another to really envision what | actually occurs. I think there's a conceptual leap there virtually | impossible to grasp as it is so far beyond the expected. Just as | the complete destruction of the areas hit by the Tsunami was | ... | | And, yes, I'll agree there has been apparent slow response--why and | who I'm not up to assessing at the moment and don't think it does | anything constructive ...

It'd better, there are at least two more hurricanes a-brewing at the moment. Preparation of emergency plans is *not* a leisure-time play-group activity.

Furthermore, even with forty-leven levels of contingency planning, two major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and readiness to do what's needed - without dithering, delay, or posturing. With stockpiles of combat rations, water, and tents we should have been seeing massive air drops of supplies into Gulf states' drop zones within hours of Katrina's passage - with an immediate ramp-up following the levee failures.

The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take immediate and effective action.

I'm absolutely floored that none of the cellular service providers has thought to set up temporary "towers" for emergency communications.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Swingman]

**> two major components of leadership are thinking on your feet and readiness

**> The size of the disaster cannot be an excuse for failing to take

I am beginning to suspect that we could do worse than making a calculated effort to replace the current crop of "emergency management" _leadership_, at the national and regional levels, with a core of seasoned, ex military combat leaders. I doubt there is anyone in this country, as a group, who is better trained and more qualified to think, plan and react as you point out

** above.

Just imagine how effective FEMA could be with a Schwarzkopf in charge instead of a politically favored lawyer.

With all the damn wars we've involved ourselves in, just in my lifetime, there should be a few of them around.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I've been watching an antenna being put up. It is not all that fast and simple and you need power to do it. AND, it must be connected to land lines at some point.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

This is a big part of the problem. The local scene is so destroyed for so far that a lot of things put in place would be unusable. and unreachable.

[Dave Balderstone]

Bull. This was predicted YEARS ago.

It's not like we're talking about a comet striking the gulf. We're talking about a cat 4 hurricane.

You can't keep a straight face and tell me this is a surprise.

Can you?

[Morris Dovey]

Glad to hear that they're working on it.

I've only installed VHF repeaters; but the installation should go rapidly (the only power we needed during installation was for fine-tuning the duplexers). Land line connection could be remoted using a (direct) microwave or (indirect) satellite link to the connection point. Site it on the tallest stable building and get it on the air with a pair of portable generators.

Or is it only this quick and easy for amateurs?

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Morris Dovey]

| I am beginning to suspect that we could do worse than making a | calculated effort to replace the current crop of "emergency | management" _leadership_, at the national and regional levels, with | a core of seasoned, ex military combat leaders. I doubt there is | anyone in this country, as a group, who is better trained and more | qualified to think, plan and react as you point out ** above. | | Just imagine how effective FEMA could be with a Schwarzkopf in | charge instead of a politically favored lawyer. | | With all the damn wars we've involved ourselves in, just in my | lifetime, there should be a few of them around.

Sadly, it's not just FEMA (who, as far as I can tell, are simply incapable of serving in any kind of "first responder" role) but the same pattern of behavior that the administration displayed in the tsunami disaster.

That pattern looks a lot like: 'Lets wait a week or three and see how many are left before we do anything - it'll be cheaper if we just let the weak ones die where they are.'

On the news last evening I heard black leaders opining that help had not been forthcoming because so many of the victims were black. I don't believe that's the case - and that the results would have been exactly the same for /any/ racial mix. Either way, it's not America at its best.

Cheaper indeed.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Charlie Self]

Yes, well, it's not blackness that's the problem, or so I think. It's money. If you got money, you got help. If you don't got money, you don't got help. Period. Now, this tends to apply more to blacks in some areas (especially the deep south) than it does to whites, but IMO, George Bush cannot even SEE people who are not neat, clean, well dressed and making at least a quarter mil a year. Didja check out his hugs going to the people when he was in New Orleans? For a place with no water and no clean clothing, those were amazingly polished up huggees. His "people" probably want to make sure the King George is not offended by body odor.

[Unquestionably Confused]

I know Cellular One / Cingular used to be able to move "mobile cell" trailers in for disasters, etc. Power would be self-contained generators of land lines. Your point about the land line connection is valid though I wonder if they've worked out some sort of wireless relay or satellite feed by now.

Used to be - with the older cellular infrastructure systems - they could assign priority codes to LE cells to cause the system to drop "non-essential" communications in deference to calls initiated by LE/FD/Rescue. IT was explained to me that this came about, at least in part, due to the media showing up on scene, dialing up their newsrooms and then just keeping the line open for the duration (lest they get "scooped"). Remember way back then they didn't have digital and, while I forget the number of frequencies available in any given cell, it was certainly less than 45 or so.