Design for my garage shop

Page 5 of 6  
On Mar 15, 12:04pm, "Lee Michaels"

. . . . . . .
you are mean......*smirk*
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On 3/15/2010 11:00 AM, Robatoy wrote:

Y'all go ahead and laugh, now! :)
I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with regard to the sub panel choice/type.
Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...
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Swingman wrote:

Okay, Okay, I WILL DO as Lew suggested--and gladly too! : ) : )
He wrote:
Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
Question: So this redundancy is a good idea for 240v tools, but is not as important for ones powered at 120v (which are even more likely to be powered by conventional outlets wired in a series)?
Thank you, Bill
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On 3/15/2010 3:04 PM, Bill wrote:

You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit to each machine in your home shop.
Is your shop in a garage?
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Swingman wrote:

...
And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...
For a home, casual-use workshop as I gather this is, one or perhaps two 30A 240V circuits will be enough w/ outlets judiciously placed for the major equipment you now have and some consideration given to what you think you may want to add in the foreseeable future. You, as an individual can never be using more than one at a time so, other than the one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously will be the potential DC and maybe a compressor.
Circuits for electric heat, etc., should, of course, be separate.
The "non fused disconnect" at each tool is, in ordinary terms, the plug on the end of the power cord.
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On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a "dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.
At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they once were.
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Swingman wrote:

That _is_ one of the later NEC items I do tend to ignore in non-wet/indoor locations like a shop...probably the most common one , in fact. :)
Bill should, of course, follow local Code requirements (disclaimer :) )
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dpb wrote:

Having recently purchased my home, I think it is the case that our local code (central IN) requires GFCI on outlets within a short distance of a sink/bath except older homes may be grandfathered out of this requirement. However, needless to say, I am not an expert.
Bill
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On 3/16/2010 11:53 AM, Bill wrote:

Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough, find most woodworking "shops" these days. :)
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Swingman wrote:

iwires post from "mike_holts" forum, copied and pasted below (it makes interesting reading...). --Bill
I will post the code rule for GFCIs in basements below but the short version is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection.
You have a few options.
1)Install a 2 pole 120/240 GFCI breaker at the panel and protect both the 120 and 240 outlets.
2)Use a standard 2 pole breaker at the panel go to your 240 outlets first then install a GFCI outlet at the first two (each leg of the 3 wire cable) 120 receptacles and protect all receptacles down line with those GFCIs
3)Use a standard two pole breaker at the panel and go in any order with the 120 and 240 outlets but install a GFCI outlet at each 120 volt location.
IMO keep the 240 outlets on a separate breaker, by the time you jump through hoops to do this you will have spent as much as running a 2 wire home run for the 240 outlets.
Here is the code rule.
210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(5)Unfinished basements for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On 3/16/2010 3:50 PM, Bill wrote:

I trust you are not interpreting that to mean that ALL 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection?
BTW, what's a "basement"? :)
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You may be spot on this. I only do commercial industrial so I'm not right up on residential but I believe all garage circuits require gfi. There are exceptions for appliances and dedicated circuits. May be a drawback garage shops, but I think most repair shops are now required to have gfi circuits. Mike M
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On 3/17/2010 3:32 AM, Mike M wrote:

We are required in most municipalities where I build to have GFI protection on all "wet area" receptacles ... this includes bathroom, utility rooms with sinks, kitchens, garages, sun rooms with drains, and all exterior receptacles.
We are also required to have AFCI protection on all dwelling bedroom circuits.
On the latter, I've had homeowners who are selling a home I built when AFCI wasn't required, or even available, and during the sale process failed a buyer's third party inspection because lack of AFCI protection, I've gone back and had the electrical contractor install them at our cost ... seems like good business, and a prudent thing to do in this litigious society.
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I can see where thats good business. The more people that have something good to say about how you do business is good for repeat and referal customers. A good reputation leads to a lot more negotiated business and being able to sell on quality and fair price instead of just cheap.
Mike M

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On 3/16/2010 10:12 AM, dpb wrote:

just a small caveat to this statement, as I had to consider this in my shop. Both a given power tool, perhaps the table saw, and the dust collection system will probably be on the same time. Be sure to add both loads together to make sure a circuit is large enough. Oh, and don't forget that your air compressor will more than likely kick on at this inopportune time as well.
Harvey
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eclipsme wrote:

Uhhh, _excuse_ me??? The part you so judiciously snipped continued...
"so, other than the one tool, the only other loads active simultaneously will be the potential DC and maybe a compressor."
For 30A/240V, 10A each will be in the neighborhood of 3hp FLA motors. I submit for the home shop dude just getting going as is OP he'll have far more than enough...
If'en he's going w/ 5hp PM and an Oneida central DC, well ok but I don't get that feeling here, do you???
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When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs the dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor (neither of which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more than one device at a time? Additionally, I ran four 120v circuits, two for power tools with each wall having a mix of both circuits and a single circuit each for the freezer and a "beer box."
Dave in Houston
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Proper beer boxes are 550-V 3-phase, no?
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dbp,
Following up on your hints, I came to learn that a service outlet offering 240v 50A service is different than one offering 20A or even 15A service (although the 20A outlet, 6-20 is compatible with 6-15). The Grizzly G-0690 TS I am considering has a 6-20 plug (NEMA 6-20P). ; )
What a day.
Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance from the main panel? I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.
Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A and 20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? As you mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold in terms of actual usage.
Thank you for the lesson! Bill
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Bill wrote: ...

That's cool...

No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the same or smaller than the feed. If it's close enough, you can (I think) get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...
Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard. The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...
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