Cut off your finger? Sue

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On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:42:35 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-

No, Mike, it's not mere semantics. Judge and jury are two entirely different entities in law. And the fact of the matter is that the judge hated the suit in the first place. I don't see how he let the thing into his courtroom. He reacted to the assinine award given by that dumbass jury and changed (remittitured) a nearly 3 million dollar award down to $640k, covering her (lawyer-extended) medical costs. Without a lawyer, they would have been a tenth that.

Then why are you participating in the discussion? Just hit 'I' and move to the next topic.
-- There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder. -- Ronald Reagan
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On 3/11/10 9:18 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

No Larry, it is semantics, in the context of what I said. If I wrote, "she was awarded," it would've save you this whole diatribe.

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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This is a lie that has been handed down for ages. The coffee was served at a customary serving temperature (180F). Dunkin' Donuts served coffee at *exactly* the same temperature (their spec was 180F +/- 3F) at the time.

BS. You don't want burns, don't put a cup of coffee between your legs.
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On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:39:43 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com"

You're right in that it wasn't a standard. I studied this case in college and it's been a while so the details were fuzzy. McDonald's coffee was 185 +/- 5 degrees. I forget the exact numbers we used but we calculated the results, using an admittedly oversimplified model, and there was a drastic difference in the severity of the burn and length of time it took to get there. If you were at the high end 190 it was much worse than the low end of 180. If you used the lower temperature of 150-160, whatever it was, it was only borderline second degree burns instead of third degree burns.

Most people wouldn't expect to receive third degree burns requiring skin grafts and years of treatment to recover. People blamed her not removing the pants as the source of the problem but the analysis showed that there was nothing she could have done about it. The jury did find her partially to blame, though I do think most of the blame rested on her.
The point is that this case is always trotted out as the worst example but it's not as cut and dry as it is presented. I have a hard time believing there's as good of a story to back up the fellow that wants the safety feature from a $3000 saw on his $100 Ryobi.
-Kevin
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On 3/9/2010 9:33 PM, Kevin wrote:

ANSI CM-1.

As it should be.
> I forget the exact numbers we used but

Tell it to ANSI, SCAA, and every other authority on the brewing of coffee.

Then most people are idiots.

Of course there was. She could have not held the cup between her legs.

Yes, it is, until the lawyers get involved.

The lawyers will make one up and cherry pick their data to support their argument, just like the ones in the McDonalds case.
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On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:13:08 -0500, "J. Clarke"

I guess since I'm such a fool I don't know the difference between brewing and serving temperature.
-Kevin
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On 3/10/2010 5:27 PM, Kevin wrote:

What makes you think that there is such a difference other than that some scumbag lawyer said so?
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On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:41:37 -0500, "J. Clarke"

I'm not. You aren't going to be drinking 185 degree coffee though. In a restaurant setting you have your server going around to multiple tables freshening up cups, and you want the last cup to still be hot. At the drive thru I'm guessing you are going straight from the holding container, which is in close proximity, into an insulated cup and into the customer's hands pretty quickly. It seems plausible to me that you might not necessarily want the same holding temperature. You don't just have idiot customers to worry about but also your minimum wage drone who might not get the lid secured properly and drop the thing in the customer's lap. I might still decide to serve it at 185 but I wouldn't get there straight from a brewing spec.
-Kevin
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On 3/10/2010 8:16 PM, Kevin wrote:

So tell us how, using the typical Bunn-O-Matic coffee brewer that most restaurants have on the counter, you would go about achieving this reduced holding temperature.
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On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:45:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Excerpt from the judgement in a similar later case in Britain:
"I accept Mr. Hathaways evidence that the temperature settings for the Blickman and Bloomfield coffee machines were pre-set by the manufacturers and were as follows:
Blickman
Brewing temperature 86.66 C to 90 C (188 F to 194 F)
Holding temperature 86.66 C to 90 C (188 F to 194 F)
Bloomfield (up to September 2001)
Brewing temperature 78.88 C to 83.33 C (174 F to 182 F )
Holding temperature 75 C to 78.88 C (167 F to 174 F)"
So it's pretty obvious at least some of the machines have separate brewing and holding temperature settings. If not, I'm fairly confident McDonald's has enough of these things to tell the manufacturer whatever they want to do with one and get it.
The judge however wasn't having any of it, including the if it was a lower temperature it wouldn't have been as bad of a burn argument, because according to what was presented to him even the lower temperature they were asking for was still in the 3rd degree burn in 2 seconds range. However, he is of course not an expert in thermodynamics and can only go on what he is told. A model or experiment is only as good as the assumptions behind it. It doesn't sound like anyone bothered to rig up a human analog with temperature sensors, get it up to body temperature and with clothes on it actually pour the damn coffee on it.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2002/490.html
"There has been no research performed on human skin to study the relative effects of temperature and duration of contact. However, pigs have skin very similar to human skin and there has been research using pigs. The classic paper in this field is Moritz and Henriques: The relative importance of time and surface temperature in the causation of cutaneous burns published in (1947) 23 American Journal of Pathology 695-720. This research shows that the minimum temperature at which skin burns is 44 degrees Celsius. At 50 C the duration of exposure required for a full thickness burn is 257 seconds. At 55 C the duration for such a burn is 11 seconds. At 65 C the duration required is just 2 seconds. The relationship between the surface temperature of the skin and the exposure time required for a full thickness burn is exponential. "
This doesn't tell me whether they were applying a fixed heat source, say a thick metal plate, which would hold its temperature, versus a spilled liquid which would be losing its temperature rapidly in a dynamic situation which would give different results. I'm guessing the former. There's also the clothing which would also reduce the temperature before contact with the skin. Small differences, but we're talking about whether a temperature is reached in 2 seconds (you're screwed) or 10 seconds (you have time to go "FUCK!" a couple times, gather your wits, release your seat belt, and yank down your pants.
-Kevin
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<snip>
So you require that the coffee sit on the burner for an hour before serving? When it's done brewing it's served.
As I said in an earlier post, at the time of the McD's fiasco, Dunkin' Donuts was *serving* coffee at 180F +/-3F. The franchise would be measured on this and it was a severe ding if the coffee was out of spec. Now, after the trial lawyers took over the world, it's hard to get a luke warm cup of coffee from anyone. <...>
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Nonsense. The energy contained in a liquid is proportional to its temperature (difference).

Most people are bright enough not to put a cup of steaming coffee between their legs. Most people are bright enough to blame themselves when they do something stupid. Alas, this is changing in your prized nanny state.

Yes, it is cut and dried. The lawyers lied, their expert witnesses lied, the press lied (no surprise in any of this), and the defendant's lawyers weren't bright enough to hire competent expert witnesses on their own. ...so now you can't get a decent cup of coffee and you want to take table saws away too. Take 'em all out and shoot 'em, along with the rest of the leftists.
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How rational.
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On 3/10/2010 7:59 AM, Robatoy wrote:

Fire with fire, irrationality with irrationality?
Me, I prefer to just say: "Fuck all you liberal bastards". ;)
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But that too is divisive. . . .g,d,& r
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On 3/10/2010 8:41 AM, Robatoy wrote:

Then why the bastards keep multiplying, cher?
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That's because they keep poking their noses and other parts where they have no business. That makes them a Librul.
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Didn't read the whole thread, but ... has anybody noticed that the Patent Attorney/SawStop inventor seems to be behind this one, and a previous, similar lawsuit?
http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/editorials/bosch-tools-sawstop-lawsuit
Isn't that the greedy capitalist, then, and NOT the leftist lawyers .... ?
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Not greedy capitalist, rather wannabe crony capitalist, which isn't a capitalist at all.
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Excellent question.
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