Choosing a grinder

[adrian]

After taking hours to grind a small nick out of a chisel on bench stones (320 grit and 120 grit) I've come to the conclusion that I need some sort of power grinder for tasks like this, as well as for grinding back primary bevels, and maybe for shaping tools (like to camber a blade for coarse work).

I don't have a place to set up a grinder permanently, so it is going to have to be something I stow when it's not in use and bring out when I'm using it. Space is a concern. That makes the standard bench grinder seem suboptimal as they are somewhat large and heavy.

I was therefore thinking that the recently introduced WorkSharp 3000 might be a suitable alternative. This device spins sandpaper on a glass plate. I have seen this thing positively reviewed in a few places, and it's comparatively small and light.

Does anybody have any comments on the task of grinding tools and whether this device is a reasonable substitute for a bench grinder?

[tiredofspam]

I would spend the money on either the Tormek or the Veritas before I would spend it on the Worksharp. The other 2 have more features that will grow with you.

I have a Delta 23-700 and I never use the wet stone. I bought it at a garage sale. The stone isn't true, and when I say that, I mean IT ISN'T TRUE. Its out of round and side to side. The thing acts like an egg. I trued up the round part as best as possible. but can't use it for backs at all.

I do use the fast moving white stone occasionally to reshape. Other than that I have a set of water stones and Arkansas stones.

The veritas system is close to the worksharp, but it looks like it has more smart features.. check carefully.

The Tormek... well what can't you say about the Tormek, except that Jet now makes a similar mach> After taking hours to grind a small nick out of a chisel on bench

[adrian]

These extra features aren't obvious to me. The Tormek is a big machine which seems like it would be awkward to store and move around. The Veritas seems similar to the worksharp for double the price, and it doesn't have the "see through" feature or the aluminum guide that conducts heat away from the tool edge.

[justajohndoe]

As I'm a bit more on the Neaderthal side than most, but let me recommend a different option. Outside of saws, I've been using handtools for nearly everything lately - the "slippery slope" as it's called...

Certainly grinders can speed up the process - but the investment might be more than you bargined for. Jigs, tool rests, good wheels - and some people don't like the hollow grind. Nor am I a big fan of the sandpaper method of sharpening - it's a good starting place, but for the long term, I needed something with more industrial strength. Continually having to replace the paper can get expensive.

You might consider a DMT Duosharp coarse and xtra-course diamond stone. Removes metal faster than you might realize... I can cut new bevel on a 2" A2 plane blade in less than 10 minutes. Flatten your backs faster - and flatten your waterstones.

If I could borrow a penny, that'd by my 2 cents...

- jbd

[Rod & Betty Jo]

You might consider a 1 inch belt sander...I have a 1" by 30" but think the

1" by 42" would have been better.....assortment of grits(120-320) and chisel nicks are simply a non issue. They run reasonably cool, at least mine is fairly light so stowing and retrieving is a non issue. The stock guide or tool rest platform probably won't provide appropriate angles but aftermarket or homemade will suffice. Works well on knife blades as well, better than anything else I have tried and seems to be the professional knife sharpeners choice.....Tage Frid simply recommends a portable belt sander mounted in a vice for quick nick removal (120 and above grit). Rod

[Maxwell Lol]

The Tormek has a handle on top, and stores in a milk crate. But you may have to empty the water tray, and you should not dump it down the drain. And there is the accessories. I think the water tray would be more of a problem (but it does detach).

It doesn't need fastening to the table - however. The speed is slow enough that it doesn't vibrate.

As for the extra features, there are scissors, axes, kitchen knives, turning gouges, scrapers, carving tools, as well as the buffing wheel.

Being able to regrind a turning tool using the exact settings as last time in a minute is real handly.

[adrian]

I generally prefer hand tools and would be delighted with a hand tool solution. But having already spent too much money on non-powered things that didn't work---coarse stones and lapping plates with diamond paste---I feel like I'm better off giving up and buying a powered device. I asked for advice from a guy who sells very good hand tools, including diamond stones, and he said "use a grinder".

The Worksharp 3000 can be had for $180. I estimated the cost of a grinder with a high quality wheel, tool rest, and wheel dressing tool at around $180 as well. Now the worksharp requires sand paper so there is that continuing cost, but it includes an integral tool rest. I assume that grinding wheels last a long time, but they are also expensive, so I'm not sure how the operating cost of the grinder compares to that of the sandpaper based Worksharp. It appears that the Worksharp is more versatile since it presents a surface that is guaranteed to be flat.

I have read and read about the DMT diamond stones, both here and elsewhere, and I keep reading that they often have a very short lifespan. People report that they quit cutting after a few hours of use. People sometimes report that they don't cut particularly fast as well. I read that someone killed a DMT stone by trying to flatten a coarse shapton stone on it. I was thinking about getting one (seeing no clear alternative) when I got the advice to get a powered grinder instead.

[greatviewcsc]

Just a comment on the DMT life. They don't seem to ever wear out from my experience. Maybe they get finer and finer but I still get good service out of my first DMT that I bought at least 15 years ago.

In addition, I used to know the Powells (Andover, MA) who owned DMT (and maybe still do) and Hank's biggest complaint was that they don't wear out thus DMT doesn't have a replacement market to speak of. The only problem is that they are expensive but, as they last so long, the annual cost is minimal!

At least that's my opinion.

[Artemus]

As always it depends ... Primarily on what you are going to be sharpening.

For me that's chisels and plane blades and I've settled on a slow speed

8" grinder with white (vitrified) wheels and a Veritas tool rest. Both are mounted on a piece of plywood and is easily switched between the benchtop and storage.

I got this grinder on sale for $75

got the tool rest on sale too but don't remember how much I paid. honing I use scary sharp. Art

wrote... [snip]

[justajohndoe]

Understood completely - and regardless, it's good to keep your eyes open no matter the path you choose. I'd hate to steer you wrong - but all I can do is give you my opinion, and hope you make a choice that works best for you!

I've used a Tormek - and it's a good tool, just not for me. I've not used the Worksharp, so I can't comment... When I was in your shoes, I was just about to pull the trigger on the Woodcraft grinder, the Veritas deluxe tool rest, a special order Norton stone, and wheel dressing tool (yea, about $200) - and with alternate recommendations, decided the DMT was worth a try. I've been very happy with it....

I've never seen where a DMT wore out after a few hours work... I think that's crazy talk!!

And the DMT works great to flatten my blue 320 Shapton (and yellow

1000, and purple 5000, and green 8000). But, yes, I feel your frustration \ fear. I bought the 320 Shapton SPECIFICALLY to flatten blades and cut a "fast" bevel. pfft - it doesn't do it; and my arms ached trying! I've worn a groove in the coarse Shapton from the elipse guide trying to cut a bevel. Again, the DMT xcoarse (220) rips it faster than 60 grit sandpaper.

Eh, give the Worksharp a try - and let us know!!! I may have to change my methodology!

Good luck!

-jbd

[Tanus]

I've been in that place too, and it's not fun. I ended up using coarse sandpaper to take a nick out of a plane iron once, and vowed never again.

I don't have a lot of space either, but I suspect I have a bit more than you. Regardless of space, I felt I couldn't go any longer without a powered grinder. So I'm following this guy's plans for a sharpening setup. It's likely more space than you think you can afford but I think it's likely a good way to go.

Keep in mind that he's a turner, and his requirements are different from yours. So you may be able to save some space by dedicating your setup only to chisels and plane irons.

[NoOne N Particular]

Anyone have their 2007 Grizzly catalog? On the back cover is a sharpening machine that (to me, at least) looks like a mirror image of the Tormek/Jet and only costs $170. Does anyone have any hands on experience with this machine??

Wayne

[Rita and Neil Ward]

Sure looks like the Tormek/Jet...

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

With Tormek experience, I can add some comments:

How is the tool rest height adjusted? There are no threads on the Grizzly post. The post threads are important.

The Tormek and Jet "grinder" are simple, basic machines. The real meat of the machines are the jigs and the manuals. I see no jigs on the Grizzly site. Perhaps the genuine jigs have heavy duty patents on them?

If you add the basic Tormek adjustable post and included parts, the Grizzly isn't a huge deal, and you still wouldn't know the quality of the Grizzly wheel.

[Father Haskell]

That's normal with all abrasives. The high points break off, making fast cutting stones (or paper) cut slower -- but smoother. "Broken in" stones are better for polishing tool backs, since they don't leave deep, ugly scratches.

If had no stones, I'd go with SiC paper. Grit seems more uniform than even monocrystalline diamond. New 600 wet-dry won't wreck a smoother iron like new 600 diamond will.

[CM]

I have a Tormek which had to be stored when not in use at my last shop and it was easy to pick up and place on the shelf. I got a little spillage from the water tray when moving but it never caused a problem. I think I read somewhere that Tormek is offering free grinding wheels for life now. I also like the fact that it makes it easy to sharpen most things around the house including scissors, knives etc.

The new shop will have a sharpening station of some sort and the Tormek will be center stage.

I had one of my employees come by the house last weekend and insulate the shop. Huge difference the R-19 makes. Monday morning it was in the low 40's outside and it was in the high 50's inside the shop with no heater.

Good luck in you decision.

cm

[The Davenport's]

Speaking only as to the aluminum guide...

...I grind things for a living and there isn't a "support" made that will take enough heat from a tool being ground to make any difference.

For there to be a heat draw, you need a couple things that a support bar isn't going to provide:

1) constant contact to the heat sink....just resting your chisel on an aluminum bar isn't gonna do it 2) LOTS of contact...if you have a 1/2" diameter bar and a 2" wide plane blade, you will have, at best, a LINE of contact that is 2" long, and there isn't going to be a lot of heat transferred at that rate. 3) proximity... your heatsink needs to be as close to the source of the heat as is possible to prevent the steel that is the rest of the chisel from getting heat the it will hold on to for a long time.

Now, I'm the first to admit that I don't know a lot about the grinders that you are considering, but I DO know a lot about grinding and what it does to steel.

SO...if you are confident in your skills on stones for FINISHING an edge and are just looking for a rough grinder, you might want to consider a 1" belt grinder. They hhave very easy to change belts, so you can use differnent grits to get the edge close to what you want and they often have small disk sanders on the side that can be pretty useful.

I use one...it isn't the ONLY thing I use for grinding edges, but it's one of the first things I go to for rough, down and dirty grinding...everything from axes to turning chisels.

YMMV

Mike

[Maxwell Lol]

The Tormek manual mentions several of the jigs that are patented. In the grizzley, as noted, there are no dials. This is essential, especially when using the diamond truing attachment.

Also - I don't see the second jig bracket (so you can cut both towards and away from the rotation).

[Phisherman]

Hard to believe anyone taking more than a few minutes to sharpen a chisel. You can always use a belt sander, then follow up with a wet-stone sharpener or just a simple Arkansas wet stone. Bench grinders can burn a chisel unless you have a light touch. I found that no single sharpening tool (nor skill) does the job. Buy a good sharpening book (Lee wrote a very good one).

[Charlie Self]

Grinders are great for taking out big nicks and deep scratches. I don't generally like them for other sharpening chores (except maybe for shovels and spades). But you're right, IMO: taking mroe than a few minutes to sharpen any chisel is a waste of woodworking time. Making a fetish out of sharpening is something that a very, very few professionals and a great many amateurs seem to do.