OFWW wrote in news:e05o7bp30m2prle5dom3tr1onlcfn3oj5e@
4ax.com:
Depends on the glue. For epoxy, definately so. For common yellow woodworking glue, no, at least not with any kind of hand-tightened clamp. For other kinds of glues, I dunno.
It is, of course, very possible to not put enough glue in the joint in the first place, which would have the symptom you describe.
John
Perhaps I misinterpreted what you intended the response to mean...
...
I think that's a foregone conclusion for the specific project and joint within the project, yes. But I don't see that there's anything in the article as presented that really addresses the application issue in those terms, no.
IMO it is what is is and no more, no less--a comparison in isolation of a set of joints prepared independently and with no (cogent) forethought as to an actual test objective a priori. Hence it provides no information other than the basic fact of each those test results on its own.
It would have been interesting to have seen an actual comparison of, say, the Domino and beadlock systems under circumstances where they were geometrically-enough similar to see if either had any advantage over the other as a _system_ and then them as a class with respect to conventional construction techniques. But, it's simply not possible as the test was conducted. The closest there is to that would be within the miter with/without splines and the M&T with its variations of wedged/pinned; I _think_ w/o looking again at the article the latter were similarly-sized(?).
But, they didn't investigate haunched M&T, nor double nor the many other variations so from a structural standpoint in aiding a particular construction technique for a given application where true strength would be required it's also lacking for completeness.
I think again it's another patently obvious conclusion not needing any study at all that any/all as shown are sufficiently strong for a cabinet door or the like that the dimensions of the two pieces joined basically models. All in all, I thought at the time it was one of FWW's weaker offerings, truthfully (and this discussion has only strengthened that opinion).
Anyway, I've said all I've got to contribute; think I'll retire to Santa and the reindeer... :)
I had heard in an online video once about over clamping problems, that they were going to do some tests of get info, but it never came about to my knowledge.
I had a couple half lap joints come apart which added to my wondering, but in the end I realized it was sloppy work on my part. Too loose a joint. I learned the hard way that if I cut a joint best to assemble in right then. Or store up some wood ahead of time.
I made a could half lap joints on 2 X 4's to put my metal Craftsman Cabinets on, checked out the fit and it was just a tad tighter than I figured it should be, just to get glue in there. Next morning I dbl Checked the fit and both were now a tad loose and when I added glue they really got sloppy. When the joints dried I could see a couple gaps. GRRRR. And the joint seemed like it was the easiest to do in the world.
I am great with sheet metal stuff, but wood working is far different. I would apprentice myself in a shop, for free, just to learn good habits and make some of this stuff natural to me. (and for now at least, I don't even mind sanding. :) )
Sorry, I was watching some lamination jobs and some Japanese big beams and how they were jointed. Just thought some of it was common to WWing.
Hmmm, the same pores for bonding that are also important for finishes and stains to adhere to. I think I understand that, so an overly "finished" joint can be a disadvantage and coarse sand paper the best when fitting?
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Sanding isn't terribly effective but it's not particularly harmful, either. The ideal surface for a glue joint is one fresh off the plane or a chisel, say, after final tuning or a tenon for it's mating mortise. The sharper the tool, the better.
The problem outlined above is one that happens almost always with machine operations where the knives aren't kept sharp--this mostly happens because with a motor doing the work it's easier to keep putting of the sharpening past when "should have done" and since the knives are cutting in a rotating arc, when the dull surface contacts the material instead of cutting cleanly as when sharp it effectively hammers the surface. It's pretty common to see such burnished surfaces on commercial framing lumber from the planing operations as an illustration or in the mouldings in the box stores where the shaper cutters aren't changed out frequently enough...as you say, it'll really show up in the latter when finishing as differences in absoprtion and reflectance even if lightly sanded--it can take a lot of effort to remove the traces entirely. One's best off to select sticks that aren't so instead...
With hand tools, otoh, you need enough extra effort to make them work that one will stop and sharpen before reaching the point...or just quit! :)
Thanks for the heads up, added to my notes.
I love sharpening my stuff and checking it out, like chisels against the end grain, and planes, planer and jointer. Just to see the ease of hand tools usage with the right edge is a thing of beauty to me. Even with router bits and saws. I love both power tools and hand tools and seeing the old planes and special purpose planes are a thing of beauty to me. Even the bench seats used for WW. I wish I could have done this from the beginning.
Got side tracked again. But thank you for your valuable insight and sharing your experience.
my experience tells us that if you rely on studies you are doomed
what does your experience tell us
To ask the people who would know the best.
...and learn from their mistakes.
In the early days of the web that was a great resource, now, with the psuedo wisdom of twenty something web designers, and left half bell curve government employees, that information from UPL is getting more difficult to locate lately.
That does seem true, unfortunately.
I've downloaded the Handbook and a few other goldies but didn't want to take the time to dig at the moment...
The Web gets less and less useful as it gets more and more cluttered. I really wish Google would quit trying to be Microsoft and GM rolled into one and stick to developing their core competency.
Soon as the ComCasts, Verizons, AT&T's, et al got into providing Internet access and locked it down, and regulatory capture once again rules another public venue, the web has turned into a money grab, nothing more than a pallet for blithering millennial idiots to somehow "monetize" another one of their stupid ideas.
Screen real estate on your computer, once belonging to you, is now theirs, and by damned they're going to use it, and screw you. Even worse if you have a mobile device/tablet.
The asinine stuff is mostly free though, and the hive mind loves it ... even though their data and privacy IS the product. "Get off my lawn you blasted kids ... LOL
Their core competency is their biggest problem. The other stuff they do might even be beneficial.
dpb wrote in news:n5hl0f$r1u$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:
The article didn't. I was extending on your point that a meaningful comparison would require the joints to be the same size, to suggest out that the differing results for different sizes indicate different joinery would be appropriate for different sizes.
I've always been dubious that the haunch on that style M&T contributes any strength (altho magazine writers invariably describe it that way). I think it's only real purpose is to fill the panel groove, and it came into existance because a stopped groove is a pain to make with hand tools.
John
OFWW wrote in news:tjap7bp0covrb7o2beo8984h3m6v8m9r59@
4ax.com:
Yeah, for common wood glues you need wood-to-wood contact for the glue to make a strong bond. The exception is epoxy, which will fill a gap (indeed, if you add sawdust or Lew's favorite microballoons (*) to make a putty, you can fill gaps measured in inches with epoxy).
Note that, while squeezing glue out due to clamping isn't an issue, scraping all the glue off during assembly is, especially when doing things like putting a tenon into a mortise. It is possible to make a joint too tight.
Construction lumber is a pain, because it changes shape and twists and what-not whenever you cut it. I'd probably have screwed something like that together instead of glue.
Yeah, I get that from watching my buddy the machinist. Seems like the big differences are that metal doesn't compress (so you can't make a joint a tad tight and push it together), and wood doesn't let you add filler (unlike welding metal).
John
krw wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Google's core competency is making money off of advertising.
It is true that their search engine has become progressively less useful over the years - part of that is their fault (the recent idea that it should search for what it thinks you're looking for, rather than on the words you enter), but most of it is due to people gaming the system to try and get their site to show up first (there's a whole "Search Engine Optimization" industry that sets up bogus websites linked to each other, to try and make one look busy and important to Google).
John
I simply made a reference to it (along with several others that you conveniently elided) that they didn't include many variations which would be needed to be able to draw more general conclusions of relative effectiveness of various types.
The point again being the article ranking of the various joints testing uniformly without consideration of anything else except the one result is simply mis-reporting the tests.
There's really no point in furthering trying to make more of it than it was...
Sure, and that's the problem. Though I was specifically referring their search engine.
Their ranking has always been an issue (pay me for better ranking) but the fact that they're now the arbiter of truth makes matters worse. As I said, I've never trusted their search engine and it's only gotten worse.
krw wrote in news:fbp08bh8enbogbqmhifokj9bqt6iilobmc@
4ax.com:
I don't beleive you can pay Google for ranking (altho you can pay to put an ad at the top of the results, labeled as an ad).
But for facts (i.e. truth), now-a-days I go to Wikipedia. You have to be a little careful with what's there, but by and large it is very accurate.
John
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