The nanny state of this government are introducing Part P Electrical into the building regs. This means that every job will have to be registered with building control apart from very minor works such as changing a socket front. Part P will not only force up the cost of electrical work it will also force people doing DIY to break the law. I have been an electrician for 20 years and have very high qualifications but see this as a money making scam. Companies offering Part P registration to us "sparks" will net 200 billion a year. The cost has to be past on and will force most small companies into the VAT bracket and of course other costs.
We are petitioning against Part P please go to our website and if you agree join the petition. Why should they know exactly what you are having done and why should they put so much extra on both Electricians and DIY?
Yeah, like two jags is going to take any notice!!! Actually, if you ARE an electrician with very high qualifications, you have a golden opportunity to make money doing inspections for diyers. In my view, the majority of competent people who use this group will continue as before, without any threat of legal action and more importantly the adventurous, but incompetent(like the guy, I bought my house from) will be discouraged. So once all the bleating is over, which won't change anything, we will probably live in a slightly safer world.
Hear Hear!!! I would agree with all that you say. The amount of house fires in the UK, caused by faulty DIY electrical installations, has increased by nearly 34% in the passed three years. That's an increase of over 10% per year. So something has to be done now to prevent this rising any further. I'm all for tighter regulation on all major services, even if it is just for the public safety sake.
Where do these stats come from? How many actual fires are we talking about? I was under the impression - maybe wrongly - that faulty electrical installations are really not an issue; and that it is dodgy appliances that caused problems.
True. I put the figures in my response to the original consultation document, which came from a variety of sources (Home Office mainly from what I recall)...
Oh come on..... DId they give figures? Maybe there were four rather than three. As Disraeli said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics"/
According to the government's own figures, during the consultation process, virtually all home fires connected with electricity were related to faulty appliances and appliance wiring and people over using adaptors - virtually nothing with fixed wiring.
This nonsense legislation will do nothing to assist with the major causes and actually will make it worse if anybody takes notice because people would tend to add adaptors rather than using proper outlets to save money.
The data used was demonstrably thin and massaged to produce the "justification".
It should be seen for what it is, which is unnecessary and unjustified interference.
I'm surprised that they didn't invoke the Parliament Act to make it happen.
No it doesn't and this certainly isn't it anyway
Unfortunately this hasn't had quite the press coverage of fox hunting but comes from the same mind set. I don't have a view either way on the practice of the latter issue, but I strongly object to parliamentary time being wasted on both as well as a bunch of other unnecessary legislation.
Since my MP is the shadow minister for deregulation, I have written to him asking him to put part P on his list for repeal.
With arithmetic like this, I'd rather not trust your calculations for required cable size.
You have to be VAT registered if your turnover is £58K. How many competent electricians are turning over less than this? I'd expect an electrician to be billing £250 a day x 45 weeks. Add (say) £100 per day for materials supplied and fitted and you get a turnover of £78,750.
I think it's quite common for sole traders to get the customer to pay the supplier directly for materials, so they don't end up going through the trader's books. Of course, you can't then make a profit on the materials themselves.
I think we had this discussion before, but surely the _last_ people who are going to take any notice of a building regulation telling them they can't do their own electrics _at_all_, are the people who ignored the existing electrical guidelines and installed unsafe wiring!
So the bodgers will continue to bodge, while the good DIYers will have the hassle of having everything inspected. Surely one of the big advantages of DIY electrics is that you don't have to have _everything_ open, on show, at the same time, but can work room by room as re-decorating allows. Surely that'll go right out of the window in order to allow a meaningful inspection?
Where are the figures for house fires in the UK caused by faulty DIY electrical installations?
A more useful move from the government might be a mandatory "health check" for houses as they are sold. Not the meaningless rubbish that counts as a mortgage survey, but something that (as far as possible in a days - rather than minutes - work) guarantees that the place is safe and sound.
The whole point is that Part P is NOT about safety? The white paper has more to say about VAT TAX and small local firms who provide a better service. What is going to happen is that the present system means that decent electricians have to spend an extra £1,000.00 plus per year passing the cost on. And the way it is being done every job will be registered. So changing a batton holder in a bathroom I would charge you £35.00 locally. To cover my costs under part P I would have to charge in the region of £75.00 and probably plus VAT because the yearly charges would increase to over £4,000.00 for me to stay legally in business. Instead the government is making 200,000 businesses pay the price. At the moment there are only about 13,000 registered with either the NICEIC or The ECA. So these groups are going to be onto a nice little earner at assessment charge of £450.00 + VAT per day let alone the renew fee every year. Plus the fee for each job certificated. The system in Australia is much simple with only those who have a card holder can BUY electrical items and install them. They are checked but do not have to pay all these high fees etc as it is. As an approved electrician with the City & Guilds 2400 "The design erection and verification of electrical installations" the person who will be having to assess me is LESS qualified than ME! To tell me how to do my job. I know there are cowboys out there they are in every trade. But lets face it if you wanted 3 new sockets in your kitchen and I said to you yes okay £80.00 but you will have to upgrade your consumer unit as well at a cost of £300.00 what would you do? I know most people would either do it themselves or get a man who can for cash and not do the job properly. Any electrician should have a test meter costing about £1,000.00 if not then he is breaking the law even when putting an additional socket in. There are enough laws in place to prosecute the cowboys as it is. But people do not look at the cost and as the above job quote happens quite a lot (and I do not get them) [apart from the phone calls when something is wrong and they cannot get hold of the chap] what can I do. Part P is not going to solve this. With regards to fires and the increase there is a lot of houses with old re-wireable fuses in them. These do not offer correct protection and working for an insurance company I see appliance fires where the whole house has been damaged because these types of fuses do not offer good enough protection. The point is The Good Qualified Electrician is going to suffer the price and have to pass the cost on. The fact that B&Q were consulted in the white paper about Part P says it all. A house holder is not going to get his work checked full stop. And things hidden behind cupboards in kitchens etc (quite common) cannot always be picked up by a periodic inspection.
What we need is to make it law that every house is checked every five years as per BS7671 and the installation up-dated. It may cost people money but if this was done then the cost to both insurance companies who have to pay out [AND WERE NOT CONSULTED] about Part P could reduce their costs. As to saving lives the upgrading of fuse boards to split load RCD protected boards would decrease electric shock down by 90%, and if the house had its 5 year inspection this would be picked up and the house holder made to do the work. Baring in mind that this will save some ones life this is a much better approach to electrical safety in the home than anything else. Go to Europe and you can use a hair dryer in the bathroom there is always a socket by the mirror, and there standards are lower than ours. So why have they not done some thing like Part P? They have insisted more on RCD's etc. Knowing the dangers that electricity can bring I have long seen people in this newsgroup attempt things that would make me loose sleep like fitting showers, changing consumer units and the like. The tests have to be done for safety and even the RCD's have to be tested. My meter does this both time and current full and half phase. If above certain readings then it can fail a test and be have to be replaced. I have never yet had one faulty, and they must be tested every 3 months.
Again where is the advertising about Part P that starts on January 1st 2005? Who knows about it? Part P and some regulation is needed but it is not been thought about properly. Only organizations who will make money out of it and also big chains that sell DIY have been consulted. What about the 200,000 electricians and associated trades this affects? NO they don't matter but have to pay the price, and pass the cost on to you.
I have nothing to hide and see no reason for a simple card registration system where you can only purchase electrical items if you are suitably qualified and keep up to date. Any electrician by law has to have liability insurance to cover him and anyone he employs. Part P as it stands should stand for BIG BROTHER is watching you, we want every ounce of VAT and TAX we can get from you because this is really what the Part P is about. NICEIC I know of 3 firms who use young trainees unsupervised who do things wrong that are hidden for life. This is how many the large companies can make their money or pay "just"qualified electricians. I work for TWO NICEIC registered companies who come to ME when they have a technical problem that their "electricians" cannot solve!
To review it should be made law that every electrician is registered and has a card. Yes we should be checked but not at a price that is going to push many out of the trade or under ground and increase DIY work. Houses should be checked by law every five years this should be legal. And if an installation is un-safe we should have the power to disconnect it. After all a CORGI registered plumber can do this with a gas fire but we cannot with an electrical installation that is a danger to life.
You can contact me personally by FREEPHONE 0800 0745795 about any of these items or email me.My website
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goes into part P as well. (And no I am not advertising the site for work I am working 7 days a week as it is!)
"Lobster" wrote in message news:wLhnd.14$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
If Part P is going to cost you £1000p.a. that translates to about £5 per day. So if you're going to tell some householder that what was £35 is now £75 because of Part P then we can draw our own conclusions. Especially since handymen who do nothing more than replace light fittings won't be affected by Part P anyway.
I don't think you'll find many members of this group supporting this.
" In Surrey, electrical wiring and appliances are the second largest cause of domestic fires. We all know that electricity can cause fire but we may not always understand why. "
" Electricity is often overlooked as a possible fire hazard. Maybe this is because there is no flame. However some 8,000 fires in the home are reported each year as being caused by electrical faults, accidents or by misuse of electrical appliances and equipment. The following advice will help to prevent a fire in your home due to electricity. "
" Electricity is often overlooked as a possible fire hazard. This may be because there is no flame. However, some 28,000 fires in the home are reported each year as being caused by electrical faults, accidents or misuse of electrical equipment.
Over 2,500 people are killed or injured as a result of electrical fires every year.
This page looks at the main areas of electrical hazard in your home and explains how you can stop fire starting. "
An afterthought, lest anyone read the post and come to the conclusion that I'm a dangerous bodger....
I do take pride in workmanship and adherence to the wiring regs - they're a very good guide of best practise. So, the existence of this socket in my house installation does cause me a certain amount of disquiet.
Hell, I might even get round to it before Jan 1, and sidestep the whole issue.
I suppose another option would be to change the exterior outlet for one with an RCD breaker built in. MK and others make these and it would seem to me that that would only be changing a wiring accessory.
I'm thinking of taking up fox hunting. Not because I'm interested in it or particularly want to, but simply to make the point that both pieces of legislation are politically driven, impossible to police and achieve very little.
As I understand it, it is putting in a new circuit that brings it within the new regs. Why don't you put in the extra RCD protected circuit breaker now, connected to a socket/junction box next to the CU? Then when you get chance to run the cable to the outdoor socket, it is an existing circuit you are working on, so it falls outside the regs.
Or just change the existing FCU for a double pole RCD unit. This gives full isolation to the external socket for servicing / repair / replacement, and it also give you the full protection you need when in use with an appliance. No change, extension or replacement on the original circuit, just a replacement of the front plate on the FCU back box.
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