Testing wiring to BS7671: who can issue certificates?

[rrh]

In practice it looks like you either have to be approved by the NICEIC or seeking such approval even to get hold of certificates to issue. But does anyone know if the phrase "a competent person" in this context rules out people whod don't have formal qualifications as an electrical contractor? Could I do my own testing (in accordance with the regs of course) and write my own certificates; and if so where could I get blanks? I will be letting my house soon and tenants sometimes want this assurance.

[Lurch]

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 12:13:12 +0100, in uk.d-i-y "rrh" strung together this:

You can easily get hold of certificates without being in the NICEIC or actively trying to get in. With regard to a 'competent person' you will need some sort of qualifications, either in electrical installation or testing and inspection. If you did the tests yourself then you would be responsible for the installation, if anything were to cause an electrical fire then you would be accountable.

[Wheelbarrowbob]

I would assume competent person for testing is someone who hass passed a testing , inspection and certification course. You can download schedule of test results from the IEE web site. The testing includes ( on all circuits) continuity of cpc, R1 + R2 and final ring circuits, insulation resistance, polarity of all switches and sockets ( including edison screw lamp holders ) earth loop impedence, and rcd trip test times and if it is a TT system earth electrode resistance.And to test all this you will need a need a calibrated high and low resistance test instument, testing at 500 V,an earth loop impedence tester and a rcd trip time tester.

[Owain]

"Lurch" wrote | "rrh" strung together this: | >In practice it looks like you either have to be approved by | >the NICEIC or seeking such approval even to get hold of | >certificates to issue. But does anyone know if the phrase | >"a competent person" in this context rules out people whod | >don't have formal qualifications as an electrical contractor?

The NICEIC has very little to do with formal qualifications as an electrician. AIUI, only *one* designated person in an NICEIC registered organisation has to be qualified.

| >Could I do my own testing (in accordance with the regs of course) | >and write my own certificates; and if so where could I get blanks?

I think you you can download them as PDFs from the IEE website, or I have a (possibly not the very latest version) laid out as a "MS Publisher 97" file.

| >I will be letting my house soon and tenants sometimes want | >this assurance. | With regard to a 'competent person' you will need some sort of | qualifications, either in electrical installation or testing and | inspection. If you did the tests yourself then you would be | responsible for the installation, if anything were to cause an | electrical fire then you would be accountable.

And for this reason if you are certifying for someone else (and I would say tenants come in to this category) the the certificate should only be given by someone with appropriate Professional Indemnity insurance.

If the house is let as an HNO then a Periodic Inspection by a NICEIC or equivalent firm is a legal requirement, along with Portable Appliance inspection and test.

Owain

[PoP]

ebay might be a good source - I've seen them advertised there.

Recent comments I've seen suggest that government have tightened the noose, and from Jan 1st 2005 no-one will be allowed to write certificates unless they are an NICEIC member. Neither will they be allowed to undertake electrical work and then have it certificated by the local council (which is what Nick Raynsford said was possible not long ago).

Basically government are content to introduce a scheme whereby finding rocking horse pooh will be easier than finding a qualified sparky.

PoP

[Bob Eager]

In line with what is considered to be a competent person for installation, I would expect it to be anyone who is...er...competent. No course needed for either (although passing such a course *might* and I stress might - imply competence).

Yes, that is what will be needed to do the job properly.

[T i m]

The testing includes ( on all circuits)

I 'assume' that suggests an ES fitting would have the 'neutral' to the screw fitting and the centre to the sw live? (not got any or had to wire any but it makes sense if I'm right?)

All the best ..

T i m

[PoP]

If I had a rental property I don't think I'd want to generate my own certificates anyway - if a problem ensued there might be a minefield ahead with claims that you issued certificates against work which wasn't satisfactory.

The tenant might have fiddled with the electrics without your knowledge. Best to get someone else involved I think.

PoP

[Andrew Gabriel]

... at the time the firm joins NICEIC. As I've said before, at a former employer, we had to stop using NICEIC companies because we couldn't find any which still had any qualified electricians. We switched over to independant one-man-band electrical contractors and required them to bring their C&G certificates on their first day. We got a much better service.

Again, HSE requirement for PAT testing is having the required C&G qualification, and you can do this yourself (it is specifically intended to be accessible to non-electricians). You will find it very difficult to find NICEIC electricians which hold this qualification, and it is completely pointless anyone doing PAT testing which has not been trained to do so. You can easily spot someone who hasn't been trained -- they start the PAT testing by connecting the appliance to a PAT tester.

Actually, the last time we had an NICEIC firm round at work to do PAT testing, they didn't even do that -- they only stuck "PASSED" stickers on everything. Not a single item was unplugged, inspected, or tested at all. This was, I believe, a large NICEIC company, and there were 7 electricians [not] doing the work.

[Steven Briggs]

In message , PoP writes

So the situations got even more silly recently. Thinks... the company I work for has just had to join NICEIC, maybe I can claim all my own work is done by a NICEIC company employee.... Actually I'm a design engineer, nothing to do with the service and installation teams for which the NICEIC was required. The companies being doing installation* work for years without a problem, until someone at our major customer raised the NICEIC issues and all hell broke out.

*Not your average electrical stuff though, specialist telecom power plant stuff.

BTW for the OP, the certificate templates are readily available for download from the IEE as pdfs.

[Ed Sirett]

I'm sure there will be a thriving grey-market in electrical work. It'll only be where certificates are needed that there will any rub. I'd expect to pay £500-£1000 for a certificate perhaps.

[rrh]

Thanks for the comments and info, all. Have now found the blank forms on the IEE site. I completely agree that I should only fill them in myself if I am absolutely confident not only of my own competence but also of the legal issues etc.

BTW the last time this came up for me it was NOT a legal requirement to have a rental property's full electrical installation regularly checked for electrical safety and compliance with the regs (cf gas for which it is a legal requirement), but appliance testing would arguably be a requirement.

[PoP]

The problem comes if some electrical work is carried out "in the grey market" and developes a problem. Professional Indemnity insurers won't touch it, so whoever took the work on would be putting themselves at risk.

One possible way around this new legislation might be not to charge for electrical work, but charge for changing a light bulb. After all the limitation seems to be that you can't offer professional services to do electrical work.

"That'll be nothing for the new ring main Mam, and £1,500 for changing the light bulb".

And no doubt a wait of at least 3 months.

PoP

[Neil Jones]

Before the Sunday trading laws changed I heard a story about B&Q where they'd sell you an orange and give you a free table saw, or whatever

[Bob Eager]

BTW, someone mentioned that blank certificates are downloadable from the IEE. I just had a look but couldn't find them...anyone have a link, please?

[Steven Briggs]

In message , Bob Eager writes

[Bob Eager]

Many thanks.