It seems I will need to do a bit of riveting shortly, and I know nothing about it...
Background is that my kids have got into sailing (something else I know nothing about), and it has been decreed that Dad needs to upgrade the rigging on their dinghy, which may prove interesting! Anyway, part of this will involve attaching new bits to the mast - this sort of thing:
which is apparently a lump of nylon a couple of inches long; the mast being a hollow aluminium pole. This needs doing with rivets, I'm told.
So, what do I need?
Searching for 'rivet' at Screwfix, I find the following:
Go to your nearest car bits shop and buy a kit there to experiment with.
I don't like rivets to attach fitments to anything, feeling they are more suited for sheet materials. A self tapping screw would seem preferable, but it may be something to do with damaging the structure of the mast and creating fracture points.
After you have done a couple of play rivets you will find it very simple to do well.
Yup! I aggree,that sort of attachment was designed to be self tapped to a pole, judging by the depth of the hole a rivet will not be long enough for a fix.
Well, it's just that all the bits on the dinghy as originally supplied (a Topper, FWIW) were fixed with rivets, and a bloke I was talking to at the sailing club was talking about riveting the new bits on, so I assumed there was good reason not to use self-tappers (which is admittedly what I'd have done otherwise).
That cleat doesn't look like it's meant to be pop riveted - for a start, the hole on the left is countersunk so you'll need a countersunk rivet, which is a bit specialist. The worst problem is the other hole though - It's very deep, so the nose of the tool won't be able to reach the head of the rivet.
I've never been a fan of self-tappers either. I'd tend to use rivnuts for something like that :-
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only downside (apart from the cost of the tool) is that you do need a big hole in the mounting surface, so mast-strength might be a problem. Also, you need to make sure you use the right rivnuts for your mast wall-thickness (The tools tend to come with nuts for very thin panels)
I'm no expert on boats, but I'd have thought that self-tappers would work loose on a mast rattling about in the breeze.
Looking at the picture of the cleat, it seems that one of the fixing holes is quite deep - you might have trouble getting the "nozzle" of a riveter in there.
Absolute Bollocks Don¢t use self-tappers on an alloy mast they will just rip out. Get the correct alloy countersunk pop rivets from a chandlers. The last thing you need is a cleat to rip out and the boom smacks one of your kids in the head before knocking them overboard.
What you must first do, is give us an indication of what the cleat is for, what size holes are in it for fastening to the mast, at what position will it be fixed to the mast (height).
These are only a few questions that spring to mind right now.
There are lots ot considerations about this seemingly small job.
After spending well over 20 years working with what I would imagine to be very similar materials in the aerospace industry, I would urge you to consider the following.
A dinghy's mast is subject to stress across it and as such, any weakness will cause it to crack. Any hole is a potential weak spot. OK if on an inland lake/pond :-) Put the same dinghy in the sea and you can imagine what would happen if the same thing happened.
The link that was posted about rivets looks like it infers 'pop rivets'. These are OK in the right job, but I would tend to go for something that can't work loose, or snap off.
Post again with as much info about the job and boat as you can.
Right tool, wrong part (for this application). Corrosion is a big issue on any boat - mild steel rivets (even if plated) will have a very limited lifespan. Stainless steel fittings + aluminium mast + salt water will also cause galvanic corrosion of the aluminium very quickly. Self tappers will therefore become loose as the aluminium corrodes around them. Stainless steel rivets will last longer than self tappers, aluminium rivets will be the best option.
However - why is this extra cleat needed? It is a long time since I sailed Toppers, but it is what is called a strict one design class. This means that you are not allowed to change anything on the boat unless specifically stated in the rules. The rules say:
"Any alteration to the hull, spars, foils, sails, rigging or equipment as supplied by the builder or sailmaker shall be prohibited, except as specifically authorised by these rules."
Obviously this only matters if your kids wish to race it, or when you come to sell it, but be advised that sailing has far more than its fair share of bar room experts who will be able to think of things that you 'need', be it a new sail, new foils (rudder and daggerboard), different ropes, different blocks, different toestraps, new storage bags, different trolley, etc, etc, etc. If you are competing in the national or world championships these things matter - anywhere else it will just cost you a lot of money for no reason.
If you post a bit more info on where the cleat is supposed to go and what it is supposed to do I'll try and advise you further, or you could go along to the Topper class association website at
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and ask on their forums (if not already asked and answered there).
Sorry for any confusion, I guess I shouldn't have posted that particular cleat as an example; I thought it would help my explanation rather than totally cloud the issue, as has happened! I'm not actually fitting that cleat at all; I'm buying (apparently) two kits to convert our existing old Topper to centre-main (which I'm told is a good thing) and at the same time fitting racing rigging, all of which is offially approved and race-legal. I don't have any pics of the actual kit which I'll be ordering, nor do I know exactly what the kit will contain, but I'm told it will involve riveting various components to the mast and boom.
I'll know more when the kit (and instructions!) are in my hands; perhaps I'd better wait till then. Just that I knew I'll be needing some riveting kit, and wanted to order that in parallel. Seems it's more complicated than I'd imagined, though!
Riveting of this nature is straightforward (IME) - the main things are to ensure the hole you drill is the right size for the rivet, the rivet is the correct length for the thickness of the materials and you hold the materials being joined tightly together as you rivet. I would expect that if instructions are not included with the kit they will be available from the Topper class association (or via their forum).
I assume (perhaps incorrectly) from your OP that your kids are new to sailing. Find me three sailors, and one will say centre main is best, one will say aft main is best, one will say the 'Laser arrangement' (basically a bit of both) is best. The reality is the difference is (for many sailors) personal preference. IMO, aft main is easiest for a new sailor. From the class rules, I'm guessing the other changes are primarily to increase purchase on kicking strap, downhaul and outhaul. The kits seem to be primarily low stretch ropes and high quality ball bearing / ratchet blocks. None of these matter for beginner sailors (or even intermediate level club sailors). At club level, practice and training to be able to spot wind shifts, decide when to tack and keep the boat level and working at its most efficient is vastly more important. Reading the book 'Start to Win' by Eric Twiname:
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(IMO) make a vastly bigger difference to their sailing.
If on the other hand your kids are vying to become the next Ben Ainslie, feel free to ignore me :-).
According to my marine experience they are not ;-). 'Very quickly' was an exaggeration (there are certainly many worse combinations of metals for galvanic corrosion), however I have seen a number of instances where stainless fasteners have pulled out of the aluminium masts / tubes they have been fitted to.
True, though I don't know how available interfay solutions are to the diy market?
They are available from yacht chandlers, and specialist tool / fixing suppliers.
We are talking about attaching a plastic cleat to lightweight sailing dinghy. The aluminium (alloy) rivet is not the weak link - the cleat will fail first.
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