I have looked at a terraced house and there is no felt under the tiles. A couple of slates need replacing and others renailing. Does felt have to be there? Would a building society refuse a mortgage on the place if no felt under the tiles?
Its quite normal. It means the roof is old, as felt has been used for many years now. Practically it means there is no backup waterproof layer in case of slate loss. It is also a caution to check the condition of the roof, as some of these old roofs are heading for reslating time. Just look to see how many slates have been refixed with lead tingles. If the roof is liberally peppered with them, you can expect more slate to fall each year, ie time to reslate.
NT
Thanks. When you say "It's quite normal", do you mean to refuse a mortgage because of no felt?
On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 01:22:56 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com wrote (in article ):
There are large numbers of turn of the (19th-20th) century houses around just like this and they certainly change hands with mortgages.
A mortgage valuation survey might pick up a roof in really poor condition as needing to be re-roofed at some point. However, deterioration is gradual with slates slipping as nails eventually give way. It would be unusual for this to all happen at once and mean immediate replacement. So this should not mean anything more than a reduction in valuation assuming that the lenders have money to hand out and it seems that they are falling over themselves to do that.
However, having seen these in the past, I would look carefully in the roof space and from outside at two aspects.
- Around any chimney stacks there will be either a lead flashing or mortar benching from the stack onto the slates. Look around the timbers inside for signs of water penetration or timber decay - typically wet rot and perhaps weevil damage. From the outside with binoculars take a look at the condition of the flashing/benching.
- If there is a rear extension, there will usually be a valley where the roofs join, normally lead. Again look at as much of the timbers inside as you can and the condition from the outside.
In both cases, look for signs of bodged repairs with painted on sealers.
The one to *really* watch out for is spray foam on the underside of the slates. It's about the worst thing that can be done because it stops ventilation and traps water. Not a good recipe. The solutions would be to budget for a reroof or walk away.
If the house is otherwise in good condition, you could simply factor in re-roofing costs into the financial decision.
If you can, look in complete darkness for light shining in from outside. Then look very carefully with a strong light for signs that rain has blown in - or worse still, powder snow - at any time in the past. Don't forget to check underneath the more recent loft insulation.
And while you're there, check the topside of the lath and plaster ceilings.
Typically, you can get away with an unfelted roof for years, but then a storm comes in from an unusual direction and suddenly you have a problem. (Been there, shovelling snow into a kitchen bin, quick before it melted into the loft insulation. Roof was stripped and felted the next spring - money well spent.)
I don't think I have ever lived in a house with felt under either the slates or the tiles (they are different forms of roof covering), apart from one with a small extension that I had re-roofed. Real slate is not much used in modern properties and the usual method of sealing the gaps used to be torching - mortar infills inside the roof. However, that has usually fallen off by now, producing some really well-ventilated roof spaces. My current house, built in 1931, has tiles laid directly onto on close-fitting wooden boards.
Colin Bignell
The felt does not have to be there, and it's not so long ago that it wasn't used. The B.S. or bank will be mostly interested in whether the house is worth the money, so that their loan is safe. They may make it a condition of the loan that you repair the roof, so that their investment doesn't deteriorate.
It sounds as if the roof is well on the way to needing re-doing. For a terraced house, this shouldn't be very expensive, make sure that particular attention is paid to flashings and secret gutters (if any). You'll get felt with the new roof, if you have it done. Nails should be copper or stainless. You may find that some of the slates are re-usable - I'd consider slates as a strongly desirable choice for re-roofing, rather than tiles, at first call.
There are a large number of older properties with no felt, and I've never heard of any mort co refusing because of it, or even being intrested in it.
NT
"nightjar .uk.com>"
Our (semi) house, built in 1937, has a tiled roof. My father back pointed the tiles with mortar when it was new, it's still doing good service. We have no loose or broken tiles, most others round here have - or have been re-roofed.
Mary
It is usual to have no felt. Indeed, it is unusual for a Victorian/Edwardian house to have felt, unless it has been reroofed in the last few decades. There is no problem with mortgages.
If you decide to reroof (it isn't necessary just on the basis of felt) then ensure that a high quality breathable membrane is used. This gives much greater flexibility when it comes to insulating the roof.
Christian.
Thanks to all on this thread. The roof is not in bad shape, some re-nailing here and there. This saves fortune on new tiles and felt.
You would not use stainless steel nails on natural slates, Copper or aluminium yes. Stainless nails are mainly used on man made interlocking slates such as Redland Cambrians or Marley Monarch. Try removing a natural slates if they have been nailed with any type of steel or iron nail. You will either snap the lath or break the end off the rip (Rip, tools for removing slates and slate nails)
Also check the sides of the chimney stack to see if any signs of water marks running down, if there is you want either new flashing and soakers. I've work on hundreds of old slated roofs and re roofed a few hundred more. The main reason for re roofing is that the nails have gone like pins where they go through the slate holes. You will all ways see light shining through a none felted slated roof, this is natural, as the slates are never laid tight together. Welsh slates in there hay day were cut by hand to size, later years trimming was done by machine. They vary from 1/8 to 3/8 in width. To keep bond they are laid with varying gaps between each slate. So as you look at a slated roof from inside light can shine through from all angles. Snow is sometimes a problem. This was over come by spreading cow hair mortar , known as touching, on the back of the lath and slate. Now days underlay felt is used. There are several types of felt from about £9 to £109 a roll. You only get what you pay for as regards quality. Even some of these felts have to be vented.
K. S. Notts
We have a Victorian roof with no felt. The clay tiles occasionally slip, and I've been able to right those from the inside, so far.
Thinking about getting the roof overhauled using the same tiles, and then getting
So this is our solution, not keen on the expenditure on a new roof, heavy concrete tiles, problems with the adjoining b****** neighbour etc...
:-)
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:32:39 +0100, Adrian C wrote (in article ):
This is an *exceedingly* unwise idea, Adrian.
The foam treatments have a number of negative impacts to a roof structure:
- Any leaks or water ingress that occurs through cracked or slipped tiles etc. or simply blowing in will result in water being trapped in contact with timbers.
- Ventilation of timbers will be substantially reduced and together with a supply of water, you will have created the perfect condition for rot to take place.
- It becomes impossible to inspect the roof structure for problems, further deterioration etc.
- It also becomes impossible for a surveyor to assess the condition of the roof and he will mark that in a survey report to potential future purchasers.
- You will significantly reduce the marketability of the property. Have a chat with a few people with knowledge of the property market and see what they say.
Personally I would walk away from any property that had had this done, whether it was well intentioned or not. It creates an unknown situation for the buyer whereby the only way to be certain of the integrity of the roof structure is to rip off all the foam. Generally the only way to do that is to rip off the tiles and battens as well - in other words do the re-roofing job that should have been done in the first place.
I have commented on this type of roofing solution before. The above comments are 100% correct. If you intend on reusing the original tile with this spray you will regret it. How old are the original tiles, if you say they are slipping why ? as the tops of the tiles deteareated, it wont belong before the tiles start coming loose further down the length. If any one goes on the roof to say point a stack or renew a TV aerial and break a tile. Its near imposable to get a tile out. The only way is to cut away the spray insulation from inside, because every things bonded together. All this is from my own personal knowledge being in the roofing trade for more than 50 years. The Federation of roofing contractor don't recommend this product.
K S Nottm
Don't even think about it. It's a bodge of the first order and you'll regret it.
I can't see anything wrong with bonding slates together from below but that wouldn't involve covering the whole surface with foam. A couple of lines of foam between each joist would probably be sufficient, and that's an easy d-i-y job. It would make the slates unuseable in the event of a refit though
I've wondered about that before. Screw some metal wires to the joists so the wires run across the underside of the slates so the foam bonds slates to foam to wire to joists, then it should all stay in place regardless of nail condition. At least for as long as the foam lasts.
With only a little line of foam it should be easy enough to cut it underneath before removing. Has this ever been tried?
NT
Not very easy to stick to the underneath of a dirty flaky old slate.
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