Bathroom plumbing advice

[Road_Hog]

Right, any help/advice much appreciated. Any advice like get a plumber in, keep it to yourself.

Between now an Christmas day (effectively Thursday & Friday), I need to fit a new radiator, toilet and basin.

Yhe basin isn't that important and can wait a few days, but I thought I'd ask for the advice in the same thread. If I get time, I'll do all three. I have all three of the items, ready for fitting and have done my research.

Radiator, seems fairly simple, replacement is the same width as current radiator. It would seem that you can turn the inlet and out pipe off, unscrew the current rad, PTFE the the new rad and connect it up, without draining the system. Sounds simple, have I got anything wrong?

Basin is a little more faffing, have to switch off the water supply (cold is direct mains fed) and drain the system. Use tube cutter to cut existing pipes to taps, so that I can use compression connectors and fit the new taps via the supplied 'tails'.

New toilet, this is going to be the bugger. Old toilet is standard tank against the wall, with freshwater piper to the bowl, and plastic connecter for the waste pipe going to a cast iron pipe. Now, the cast iron pipe is the old size (I forget the size, but it is not the size of a modern system/pipe, which I think might be 110mm and this is 90mm). The old toilet sits about a foot away from the wall, the new toilet is one where the tank rests on the back of the bowl and should be up against the wall.

I'm going to need a disk cutter to take the waste pipe back, any suggestions (hire, not buy) and what is the best sort of connecting pipe for the waste outlet. I'm hoping that I may get away with cutting the pipe/extending it, using compression connectors, but may have to buy a cheap plumbers torch and solder some short pipework (again any suggestions).

[The Medway Handyman]

Basically no. However - the new rad may well be a 'slightly' different size, so allow for that by making sure there is a bit of movement in the copper pipes - the holes in the floor may not allow that - you might have to enlarge them a bit.

Use about 8 turns of PTFE tape on the tails.

You should be able to turn off the hot - look for a gate valve on the pipe feeding the BOTTOM of the hot water cylinder.

The tails could be bendable copper or flexible stainless braided. If the former use these instead

> New toilet, this is going to be the bugger. Old toilet is standard tank

Could be an embuggerance. Multi Quick connectors should sort the waste joint out, find a 'proper' plumbing parts supplier, not B&Q et al.

Angle Grinder is what you need. Cheapo 4" one about £20 - cheaper than hire & you get to keep an incredibly useful tool.

As above, multi quick adaptor, loads of different variations available.

In many cases its much easier to live with the fact that the new WC cistern doesn't go back to the wall & just box in the gap.

[Newshound]

Well, for one thing when you disconnect each valve from the rad you will find one part left in the old radiator. If you don't have replacements, you will have to get them out, so you will need the right sized (large) allen key, and they will probably be well and truly rusted in.

Instead of simple compression couplings, fit a pair of "service valves". Then you will be able to isolate the taps in future to change washers. You talk about draining the system. Is there a hot water tank? If so, there may well be a tap you can close near the tank to save throwing away a tankfull of hot water.

Do you mean you are going to cut the cast iron waste pipe with a disk cutter? There's not quite enough detail about your layout. Does the waste pipe go horizontally into the wall, or is it a Tee off a vertical pipe? I'm feeling quite nervous about this. OK, if you don't want to have a plumber on call, have you any friends or family with some experience? Sounds like you've never done soldering: consider push-fit fittings. The metal ones are a bit more expensive, but a bit tidier. Clean up the ends of the copper pipe or you could damage the rubber seals.

[NT]

Easier to just turn the hot tap on in the bath. By the time you chop the sink hot, no hw will come out. Gate valves have a habit of failing to work anyway.

NT

[Road_Hog]

Yes.

Hey, you're not the one doing it ;->

No.

My soldering experince extends to 35 years since I was a kid, the only problem is that is electrical soldering, not metal plumbing soldering. But I learn quickly. Thanks for your suggestion about push fit fittings.

[Road_Hog]

Easier to just turn the hot tap on in the bath. By the time you chop the sink hot, no hw will come out. Gate valves have a habit of failing to work anyway.

NT

-----------------------------

I'm kind of going with that idea, I hate the idea of wasting hot water, but it seems straightforward. I might just have a bath instead of a shower tomorrow.

[Road_Hog]

They're the braided stuff. Thanks for your other advice.

[Tim Watts]

Seems reasonable. Have some spare copper pipe and a few fittings handy *just in case* you need to modify one end due to width differences.

Shoudl be easy enough if using tails. Will the waste line up or is it worth having a new u-bend, a bit of 32mm pipe and a couple of "universal" compression elbows handy (hint - B&Q, keep reciept, money back if not opened)?

4.5" angle grinder, 2, maybe 3 metal cutting disks. Googles a must, ear defenders advisory. The sparks will cause damage to painted, glazed, decorative metal and glass surfaces in the immediate line of fire and may ignite sheets used for protection - so perhaps have some scrap metal or ply for shielding anything important. Be very careful that the cutter does not snatch[1] - try to work around the pipe rather than go through in one go (which is why I suggested 4.5" rather than 9" grinder). [1] which will shatter your disc and possibly leave you extracting bits of pointy disc from your body.

Wear many layers of clothes just in case. I'm not a panic monger, but you are working in a confined space which is prone to making things more likely to go wrong.

As for the connector - a decent plumber's merchant should be able to produce something that will insert into the old cast iron pipe. Take external measurements of the pipe (not the flange) and give it to him. Also mention it is for a new bog - the old spigots did sometimes have a different size to modern ones.

What he will sell you is something with flappy fins which should be extremely forgiving of variations of size and insertion angles. I like to apply liberal amounts of silicone plumbers grease (heaviest you can get) to these to aid both insertion and subsequant seal against an old pitted surface.

If you can take measurement sof the new bog spigot, try to work out if it will be central to the pipe or offset - as funnily enough, there are offset pan connectors made to solve such problems.

Personally I like to dose the cistern with bleach, flush and repeat before doing these jobs - to partially sanitise the pipe work and the old bog.

HTH

Tim

[Alan]

In message , Road_Hog wrote

Incorporating service values? If not consider Don't forget to put one on the inlet to the toilet flush.

[Road_Hog]

No, I doubt the waste pipe will line up. I've two good places where I buy my DIY stuff, one a hardware shop, the real old fashioned type, where you wander in and tell them want you want and what you're trying to do, where they then smile at you and tell you what you actually need and produce the widget from behind the counter. The other is a plumber's merchant, well priced and used to have a guy that was like the DIY shop people but he appears to have left. I did ask about a waste pipe a week ago. I wanted a flexi pipe, just because it would be easier and less hassle with the lining up of the basin, but they didn't seem to go with it.

Looks like the mechanic's overalls are going to get an airing tomorrow/Friday. Thanks for the advice. Yes it is a confined space, between the basin (new or old) and the shower and as I'm 6'2", it'll be very cosy and somewhat warm I should imagine, with all the protective layers of clothing.

I've already had to replace the waste pipe connector before (the dog/puppy nibbled it), which is how I knew that the caste iron pipe was a different size, because the previous owner had got the wrong size and just slit the 'neck' to make it fit. It's not a nice job working on the waste pipe. I'm only glad that it is unseasonally warm at the moment and I will be able to have the windows open, plus I'll make sure I don't have anything to eat beforehand.

[ARWadsworth]

Are you sure the first part of the waste pipe is not lead where it connects to the plastic adaptor?

[Andrew Gabriel]

Electrical soldering experience will get you most of the way there. Even more important with plumbing is making sure both parts are hot enough before soldering. If one part is significantly larger in terms of heat requirement (e.g. a soldered brass fitting), start heating that part first. Oh, and preparation is everything - make sure all the soldered surfaces are bright bare copper (or brass) using steel wool, and lightly fluxed. Solder is drawn into the join by capilliary action, so you only need to apply at one point at the edge of the join. Use enough to make a small ring of solder just show all the way around, but not so it's dripping off the pipe (and running inside the pipe). Wipe off remaining flux with a slightly damp cloth whilst joint is still warm, but not hot. Do some practice joins first, and afterwards unsolder them to see how good solder coverage you had over the mating surfaces.

BES is a good place to get solder fittings by mail order at a tiny fraction of the shed price, but they're now closed until the new year. My local independant plumbers merchant occasionally has bags of mixed elbows, T's, couplers etc on the counter for a fraction of the price of the individual parts, and that's handy for getting a stock of bits going.

[Kevin]

Others have warned about the possibility of slight length variation and difficulty of removing old radiator tails. Some need allen keys, some have a square for a spanner, but may not leave room for stillsons or similar. Have a contingency plan for new valves, which may, at worst, need the copper pipes extending or their ends replacing. Consider a trv if you have to change the valves, with a valve incorporating a drain c*ck at the other end.

Which brings me to the main point: the radiator will probably be full of a disgusting black liquid, capable of staining absolutely anything it drips or (more likely) sprays on. Open the bleed valve to let it drain out, once you've undone the bottom connections and started catching this water in tubs, old towels, or whatever you can get under them.

Then pat yourself on the back for draining it so carefully, with not a drop on the floor, pick the radiator up to carry it outside, and pour a steady stream of this evil dye all down your stair carpet.

[charles]

been there, done that and got the scars to prove it.

[Mike Clarke]

You're on the right track but remember that the water in the radiator will start to trickle out when you start to undo the joints so have something ready to catch it in. Any spills are likely to leave permanent black stains.

[Roger Mills]

You beat me to it! I read all the way down this thread and kept thinking "Why hasn't anyone mentioned about needing to drain the old radiator?"

the procedure which I follow is::

1. Close both valves. That will keep all the system water in the pipes

*apart* from that in this individual radiator.

1. Undo the bleed screw, to let air in as water comes out
2. Hold a containing under one of the valve to tail joints, and crack the joint. I find old foil Chinese food containers useful because they can be bent to shape. Make sure that you put plenty of old towels down, too, to catch any spills
3. Empty the radiator one small containerful at a time, tipping it into a larger bowl when full
4. When no more comes out of the first side, crack the joint on the other side, and collect any remaining water
5. Then fully unscrew both valve to tail joints, and lift the radiator off
6. With towels underneath, slightly upend the radiator and drain any remaining water/sludge (there will be some!) into the a bowl.
7. Stuff bits of kitchen roll into each of the tails before carrying the radiator outside, to make sure nothing drips on the carpets

You'll then have to remove the tails from the old radiator, and fit them to the new one - using PTFE tape, as you say. [I always use gas grade PTFE tape which is far tougher than the regular stuff].

Unless you're very lucky, you'll find that the new radiator doesn't fit the old brackets - even though it's the same size - so you'll have to change those, too. This will require some careful measuring so that the new rad's tails end up in the right place to fit the existing valves and pipes.

Do you really need to be doing this so close to Christmas? What are the consequences of living with the old stuff for a few more days, relative to those of living with nothing because it all goes pear shaped?

[Alan]

In message , Roger Mills wrote

And when the water in it is cold :) If something goes wrong you can stick your finger in the hole or hand hold the pipes in place to do the joint up again if the water is cold. Try this with hot water in the pipes....

[Andrew Gabriel]

or a pipe with a razor sharp end...

[RobertL]

On Dec 21, 11:32=A0pm, "Road_Hog" wrote: > I'm going to need a disk cutter to take the waste pipe back, any suggestions

Do you intent to cut the cast iron soil pipe? When I did this I didn't use a disk cutter for fear of setting everything on fire. i rented one of these:

tighten it up and then heave the lever and it cuts the pipe in a single (loud) bang.

Robert

[S Viemeister]

Yup, that's what we used.