Wiring dilema

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Very doubtful! It is more than likely that it the nail in the wire, as suggested by the banister's query. If a nail has been driven through the hot wire it wouldn't short out, unless they grounded the siding. A bare foot person touchin' the siding becomes the ground, in this case, albeit a weak (and hopefully brief) ground.
Op
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wrote:

Which brings up another good question...
Do outside porch LIGHT circuits need to be on a GFCI?
I'm sure this kind of thing is rare...but wouldn't a GFCI breaker prevent this from happening?
Have a nice week...
Trent
Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.
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Trent wrote:

I was called to testify against a homeowner who did his own work which then caused the loss in question. The judge would not even let the issue go to trial. He lectured the plaintiff home owners attorney for even filing because "it is a legal absurdity to claim that an insurer must compensate for the results of an unlawful act." -- Tom
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many counties, you may wire your own home without a license, but you are restricted from selling that house for a certain number of years, IINM. I rewired my mother's home about 10 years ago with the blessing of the county electrical inspector. He came out looked it over and signed off on it.
Op --
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Guyz-N-Flyz wrote:

What I'm saying does apply to every state. You obtained a permit. You passed electrical inspection. The original premise is that if your illegally installed electric work causes a loss your insurance company can walk away. Nothing about your situation indicates that this is not true. -- Tom
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Allow me to clarify my previous statements. If you are allowed to wire your own home, by law, it is not an illegal act and couldn't *necessarily* be ground for the insurance company to refuse coverage of your loss.
Now they (the insurer) may want to "walk away, they couldn't claim you did the work illegally. Just because the electrical inspector okays the work done doesn't mean it fully complies with NEC, yet you don't see electrical inspectors being carted of to jail nor are the sued by insurance companies for losses.
Op --legal issues can be awfully ambiguous at times--
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Yes, that is the case in some states, but the installation still needs to meet code. If a contractor wires it, the insurance co. can go after the contractor if something happens..........if a homeowner does it and decides to throw local code to the wind, he just doesn't collect if something happens (and the insurance co. can prove it)........just hope it doesn't end up as a wrongful death............like the guy in Connecticut some years ago.......wired a baseboard heater in a basement......broke _19_ codes rules......4 year old child killed in the fire.......guy got convicted of manslaughter. Sorry, don't have the reference, but I'm sure that it's not hard to find......I just remember reading about it.
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On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:13:07 -0400, "Thomas D. Horne"

The judge's OPINION is absurd.
This should have been appealed.
If I'm driving my car...and I break the law by running a red light...you mean to tell me my insurance company doesn't have to pay if I have an accident?
DIY repairs and installations are done every day. Just because there may be some minor violation of the law doesn't void an insurance policy's coverage. Nor does a DIY repair necessarily make it inferior to a licensed contractor's work.
There's only a few instances where an insurance company doesn't have to pay...aside from the items that are SPECIFICALLY outlined in the policy. Fraud, etc. are some of those.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Help keep down the world population...have your partner spayed or neutered.
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wrote:

This is urtle.
we are talking about a homeowner wiring his own home and not calling the city inspector, not following nec code, and work was done without any inspection at all as city codes require. The insurance company can get away with not paying if it is determined that the homeowner did not follow city and state nec codes. If you wire the house with very / grossly/ bad ly / done. The insurance company will want to know what contractor did the work and his contractor liability will have to pay for the fire. now if it is the homeowner that did the bad job. they will pay for the house to be replaced but then turn around and sue the homeowner to get the money back. You can't collect for the new home with pending sueing going on in the matter. The insurance company is going to win.
now you spoke about if i run a red lite and the insurance does not have to pay. that would be a accident or chance happening. this would be called a accident and not call a knowing before hand crime. If you was found in court that you run the red lite on purpose and knew to stop but just run it because you wanted to see cars crash. they will not pay for you but will pay for the others. A case like this is like you drive your car off in the river and the insurance found out that you did it on purpose and knew that you was doing it and could have stop driving in there anytime you wanted to. they will not pay.
The insurance company are getting smarter everyday.
TURTLE
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Tom Pendergast wrote:

I never said that it is illegal for a homeowner to do their own wiring. But in areas that require permits and inspection by law it is illegal for the home owner to wire anything in their home without a permit and subsequent inspection. If you do the wiring in violation of the law requiring a permit and that wiring causes a loss your insurance will not cover that loss. There is a very low likelihood of the insurance carrier discovering the cause but if they do they can and have walked away from the loss. If someone is injured in the fire it is investigated much more carefully. If that someone is a victim of obvious and damnable carelessness the investigators will be at pains to inform the insurance carrier of your role in the cause of the fire. -- Tom
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Thanks, Tom. This is the very point I've been trying to make.
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Where do you live, Tommy? In the Magic Kingdom?
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This is Turtle.
Tom again here, If a home owner wires his house and does not file with the city as to be inspected and be done to local and state codes. The home owner is the electrical contractor which is himself and the blame falls on the [electrical contractor / Homeowner now] and his Contractor Liability insurance will have to pay for the screw up and home owner usely don't carry Contractor Liability. If the home owner does not follow the codes and does it. The fault will fall on the installer / electrical contractor / now homeowner. A home owner can not be held responsiable even if he sets fire to his own house with gas and a match. it is OK for him to do as he pleases , but if he applies for insurance to pay for it. he is commiting a crime of fraud to collect insurance. If he wires his house wrong and proved he was wrong in wiring it. he can burn his house down and will not have a word said to him, for it is his home. Now if he applies for insurance to pay for it. he is committing insurance fraud.
The reason I'm speaking on this is State farm insurace compay was involved with a freieds house that burned to the ground. the contractor that did the job was found to be wrong in wiring that he did. The insurance company paid for the home but sued the contractor and got the cost of the house from his Contractor liability insurance. I and my friend spoke to the insurance adjuster about the fault and if the home owner would be found to have wired the home wrong and knew he was wrong like no inspection, or following city and nec code. He said we will not pay a dime for you need to go back to the wire mans insurance company for payment. Now it is a crime to not get a permit to wire a house inside city limits where there is codes to follow and it being the home owner doing the work. When wiring a house by the home owner he like the Electrican has to get a permit and follow the codes just like the electrican contractor. It is nothing wrong with wiring it wrong but if you want insurace to pay for a crime. they will tell you. The wireman / Electrican / Homeowner has or suppose to have contractors liability for not following the codes. If your brother in law wired it. They will pay for the house but sue your brother in law for the cost of the house.
Tom there is a NEC code out there somewhere that you lack the knownledge of knowing it. Yes , Tom I've been in court on matter like this before and it being from wiring of a gas furnace to a fire caused by too small of wire to a pump house. The wire went over the top of my condenser and was not my doing but it burnt off and fell down on the condenser area and set fire to the side of the house. The electrical contyractor run the wire and did not follow the code in doing so. he elevtrican's contractor liability had to pay for the house. they had me involved because the electrican run a wire over the top of my equipment and fell down and hit my equipment and started the fire. I installed the hvac equipment but not any of the wiring that failed. The insurace company has to name everybody to be sure they get the right one. The electrican run all the electric service and wires even to my equipment.
Please Tom know what your talking about before you go to judging and deciding laws and what insurance companys can and can't do.
TURTLE
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Wrong..wrong...wrong...
But...like you care...
Thank god you live up north..and not near us..
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snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net (Alexander Galkin) writes:

No. Are your recessed lights the type where you can replace the bulb with compact fluorescents? You could save a lot of money if you really are running 15 amps just for lighting. You could easily be chewing up 150 kwh a month or more just on that one circuit.
Are these cannisters? That's the only lighting style I can imagine that approaches anywhere near that level of inefficiency. Your 15 amp breaker is only rated for 12 amps continuous, so you need to stay under 57.6 average watts per fixture. You could do that with a mix of 40 and 60 watt incandescents, or just install 23 watt compact fluorescents, which provide as much light as 100 watt incandescents and would drop the circuit to a 4.7 amp draw.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

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In alt.home.repair on Sat, 5 Jul 2003 19:51:03 -0400 "Alexander

It's important to be concerned about the expected load, but one should also think about the unexpected load. For example maybe there will be a total short circuit. Even though 14 gauge wire is only rated for 15 amp, I'm sure it can carry more than 20 amps for a few seconds in case of a total short, and the 20 amp circuit breaker will blow.
Besides the situation described by someone where a later person increases the load, the theoretical problem now would be that there was some partial short circuit, whatever that would be, that allowed ore than 15 amps to flow, but fewer than 20. The breaker would not trip, but the wire would in theory be hot enough to start a fire. (well, not if it were 16 amps. It would just be a little hotter than at 15. I don't know when it gets hot enough to make a fire. Although I have phone lines in the house that sometimes work fine and sometimes give a big hum and don't work. There's no telling what can happen.
If you can't change the wires, can you put a 15 amp circuit breaker in that circuit only. Is there any way to do this without a circuit breaker box? I don't know. What about a light bulb socket, or a screw-in fuse socket, rated for more than 15 amps that has instead a 15 amp fuse. Presumably it will never blow, so one box of 4 will last you forever. If it does blow more than once, you'll decide what to do then. Is such a fuse within code. If there are no exposed metal parts it certainly seems safe enough. If not there must be minicircuit breaker boxes. Or bring the 14 guage wire back to the main fuse box and do it there. (All wire nuts must be within a junction box, I beleive. (What about soldered wires?)

Meirman
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Code, for the most part, has been written in response to fires etc. It is there to, as much as possible, to prevent death and damage, from the unexpected. Anytime it is ignored opens the door for serious problems.
--
Joseph E. Meehan

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quoting:

It would not be immediatly dangerous because you're not overloading the #14 wire, but code says you can't overfuse wire, so do it right by doing either one of the following...
1) Find a miracle way to replace the #14 wire with #12. (best)
or
2) Install 15A breaker instead of 20A one.
25 65w flood lamps total 13.75A. Replace the ones that or ON at least three hours continous per day with fluorescent ones to drop the amperage total below 12A, and it should not be a problem on a 15A breaker. Problem solved. Other things that will drop the amperage: dimmers and the fact all of the lights won't be ON all at the same time.
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