Wind chill and water pipes

Page 5 of 9  


It's a losing battle, Ed.
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On Monday, January 6, 2014 4:56:38 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Yes and the Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois all say you've lost:
Here, from the Weather Channel:

>

air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has s hown that “wind chill,� the cool ing effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can pla y a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pi pes." >

> "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,

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On 1/7/2014 8:32 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

not just the wind chill factor.

With the wind chill below zero, the actual temperature will be below 32F so pipes freeze. Nothing new, it has worked that way for centuries. See "Law of Physics" Wind will ten to blow out warm air and bring in cold air. But the chill factor is not a factor. Temperature must be 32F or below.

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On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:43:37 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Typical canard. Does that make everything on the internet untrue? NOAA is wrong? Univ of Illinois? City of Rochester? BTW, where are your references, besides your flapping gums?

ide air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois ha s shown that “wind chill,� the c ooling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."

Non response to all the factual evidence noted.
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On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 15:56:38 -0600, Gordon Shumway

Because you have nothing in your quiver. You're wrong.
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On Monday, January 6, 2014 3:40:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual, -10F windchill.

de air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that “wind chill,� the co oling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can p lay a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."

As someone else pointed out to you several posts ago, that isn't true either. You're just adding to the confusion. Any inanimate object with moisture that can evaporate can be reduced to a temp below that of the air by evaporative cooling.
Many weather reports now use the "real feel"

No one said the thermometer changes. Only that in the case that started this, where it's 0F with a windchill of -10F, that:
A - windchill does have an effect on inanimate objects
B - in cases like that, where it's below freezing, the lower the windchill, the more likely pipes are to freeze in a drafty crawlspace, an unheated cabin, etc.
Again, if all you heard on the weather report was that it was going to drop to 20F overnight and the windchill, would you be more concerned about pipes in a drafty crawlspace freezing with a reported windchill of 20F, or with a windchill of 0F?
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On 1/7/2014 8:30 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

My point is, wind chill does not cause the pipes to freeze. Wind may make them freeze sooner but the overall affect is the same. If your example was correct, a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree wind chill factor would freeze the pipes. PIPES HAVE NO FEELING
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On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:38:04 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

BS. NOAA, Weather Channel, and Univ or Illinois, among others, say you're wrong. How hard is it to understand that if it's 20F outside and the reported windchill is 0F, that it's more likely that pipes in a drafty crawlspace, an unheated cabin, will freeze? Apparently it's not that hard to understand, but you refuse to answer the simple questions posed that show you're wrong:

Wind may

Gee and when do you have wind? With a windchill that is the same as the outside temp or with a windchill that is 20F BELOW the outside temp? Again, as I've said many times now, suppose it's 35F outside. You have an unheated cabin or a drafy crawlspace. Overnight, it forecasted to go down to 20F. Two cases:
A - windchill is 20F
B - windchill is -10F
Are you going to tell us that the liklihood of the pipes freezing overnight are the same in both cases?
Good grief.
If your

My example above is correct. And again, from the OP, the conditions of the question were a temp of 0F and a winchill of -10F. So stop with the 35F, idiot.
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On 1/7/2014 12:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

When you resort to name calling it shows you lack of understanding of issues. Sorry you had to sink so low and lose respect of others. That puts me out of this now as I'm not going to wallow in the mud with you.
But you still have refused to answer about the 35 degree temperature and 20 degree windchill. IT WON'T FREEZE
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Get real! No one has said it would (though under the right circumstances, water will freeze when the ambient air is above "freezing"). The *fact* is that windchill also affects inanimate objects. The numbers quoted by the newz are for *bare* *human* skin but the effect is relevant to all objects.
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On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Trader keeps using specific numbers for wind chill. The numbers don't apply to inanimate objects. Wind does carry heat away faster then when there is no wind. No one is disputing that fact.
If Trader's windchill had the same effect on inanimate objects, then a 35 degree temperature with a 20 degree windchill could freeze pipes.
Windchill is a "feel" and can have a value assigned to it. Wind affects the rate of cooling If windchill was the same for humans, animas and inanimate objects, then pipes woujld freeze anyh time the windchill go below 32. Since they do not, yhou can condlude they are not affected.
Wind---yes Windchill---NO
Some people just refuse to see the difference
Don't take my word for it
With the bitterly cold air dominating our local news today, the phrase “wind chill factor” is getting a great deal of well-deserved attention. Some people are asking what it really means and when we started using it.
Before World War II, two scientists working in Antarctica first developed the idea and coined the phrase. Paul Allman Siple and Charles Passel based it on the cooling rate of a bottle of water that was suspended above their hut. They developed a formula and made a chart that was later released and became widely used in the 1970s. Then in 2001, the National Weather Service updated the formula used to calculate the wind chill. That updated version is what we use today.
The idea behind the wind chill factor is to give people an idea of just how quickly the cold temperatures mixed with the wind will affect humans and animals alike. Frostbite and hypothermia are real dangers from bitter cold, and the wind chill factor helps determine the level of danger we face.
The formula takes into account the temperature and winds at five feet above ground level, the average height of an adult’s face, which is presumably the most exposed part of the body on a cold day. According to the National Weather Service, it also “incorporates heat transfer theory, heat loss from the body to its surroundings, during cold and breezy/windy days.” The National Weather Service Windchill Chart states that at a wind chill of about -19º, frost bite can occur in thirty minutes. Of course, below that temperature, the colder it is, the faster frostbite will happen.
You might have heard all the hype surrounding the Green Bay vs. San Francisco game yesterday. Last week, some meteorologists were predicting the wind chill would be colder than the famed Ice Bowl of 1967. In fact, that forecast did not pan out, partially because in the 1960s, they were still using the older formula, which caused the calculations to be colder than they should have been. By the old index, the wind chill for the Ice Bowl was -47º. By the new index, it was a warmer -36. Also, the actual temperature in Green Bay yesterday was not nearly as cold as was feared by some late last week.
Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/06/3511043/what-does-the-wind-chill-factor.html#storylink=cpy
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But it is *still* windchill. The fact is that the numbers posted in the NEWZ only are estimates for bare human skin, so if you're going to play the pedantic pete role, it's not accurate for even dogs (a rather animate object).

Wrong. He's never said anything *close* to that.

WRONG. You're lying, now.

Wrong. It *IS* windchill. Wind is moving air. It has nothing to do with temperature, real or imagined.

You can't even get it straight.

I *certainly* don't because you're *WRONG*.

Windchill and Wind Chill Factor are different things. One is a specific formula (or table, really). The other is an effect.

AND IS NOT any different for animate or inanimate objects. A dog will have a different correction than a human. If you're talking about a specific table, so be it. That is *not* windchill. Windchill is more general.

Utterly irrelevant.

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On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 01:05:42 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

No shit. This has been most of the problem here. Terminology must be properly used.
You are getting closer and at least realized there is wind and the Wind Chill factor.
Now, the is a rapper named Windschill, but the dictionary does not have that as one word like trader is making up.
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On Thursday, January 9, 2014 5:59:42 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

It's not a problem of terminology. Gordon made the silly claim that "windchill has no effect on inanimate objects". In a new post he just made hours ago, he still maintains that is correct, which of course it isn't. Or do you agree with him?

Oh please. We know that and have acknowledged it from the start. Windchill is directly related to wind speed. Give me the windchill number and the ambient temp and I can tell you the windspeed.

I made it up as one word?
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/index.shtml
Title of the chart: NWS Windchill Chart.
Good grief.
BTW, thanks for posting this gem:
"Before World War II, two scientists working in Antarctica first

If windchill has no effect on inanimate objects, how exactly did they first measure it via the cooling rate of a bottle of water? And as for it having no effect on whether something freezes, leave a bottle of water that's 70F outside when it's 20F and the windchill is 20F for two hours and it won't freeze solid. Do it when it's 20F but the windchill is -10F and it will freeze solid. Capiche?
Now some pedantic loon will probably say, what size bottle, it can't freeze in that amount of time, what if the temp was 35F, etc, but clearly the effect is there and could be demonstrated. You just need the right size bottle and the right amount of time. Ergo, the reported windchill does have an effect on whether pipes may freeze, depending on where those pipes are located.
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Wind is simply moving air! Windchill is the effect of that moving air on the cooling of objects (whether they be animate or inanimate).

I can't parse that sentence.
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wrote:

bullshit: Wind chill (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air.
inanimate objects cannot perceive anything

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On Friday, January 10, 2014 12:14:46 AM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:

Wrong again. Perception is not required for windchill to have an effect.
From NOAA:
" The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. "

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 05:01:44 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Not wrong, just lying, again. He's a pathological liar, incapable of anything else.

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On 1/8/2014 12:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Not quite the same:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill The human body loses heat through convection, evaporation, conduction, and radiation.[1] The rate of heat loss by a surface through convection depends on the wind speed above that surface. As a surface heats the air around it, an insulating boundary layer of warm air forms against the surface. Moving air disrupts the boundary layer, allowing for new, cooler air to replace the warm air against the surface. The faster the wind speed, the more readily the surface cools. The speed of cooling has different effects on inanimate objects and biological organisms. For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. It cannot, however, reduce the temperature of these objects below the ambient temperature, no matter how great the wind velocity. For most biological organisms, the physiological response is to maintain surface temperature in an acceptable range so as to avoid adverse effects. Thus, the attempt to maintain a given surface temperature in an environment of faster heat loss results in both the perception of lower temperatures and an actual greater heat loss increasing the risk of adverse effects.[citation needed] A surface that is wet, such as a person wearing wet clothes, will lose heat quickly because the wet cloth will conduct heat away from the body more rapidly, and because the evaporating moisture carries away heat.[citation needed] Conversely, humid air slows evaporation and makes a surface feel warmer, and this is incorporated into longer wind chill formulas. During warm months, this effect can be described in the heat index or humidex.
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On Wednesday, January 8, 2014 1:33:25 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"I read it on the internet so it is true"
That's what you said when I gave you highly credible references like NOAA, Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois, etc. But then after making that retort, you see fit to post from Wikepedia of all places and that's cool, no problem.
And then it clearly says:
"For inanimate objects, the effect of wind chill is to reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. "
Now maybe you can explain it to Gordon. And how that effect can sometimes cause pipes in a drafty location or an unheated cabin to freeze overnight with a big windchill factor, while without the windchill, they would not.
PS: I'm not talking about a night when it's 35F.
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